Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
My brother managed to loose his P990 on the Tube on Saturday night.
To make matters worse he didn't realise until Sunday afternoon
(hangover) and in that time some cunt has managed to run up a big bill
calling pr0n and international lines.
He is still waiting for a final amount but im guessing its a few
hundred quid.
Now I know that he is liable for all call charges up to the point
where it was reported lost.
What im wondering is
A - Is there any suspicious use system in place on the Orange network
that stops calls working once the bill has reached a certain amount or
if a large number of calls are made to Premium rate numbers?
B - If the bill is huge can anything be done with Orange in terms of
mitigation, e.g. can we pay 50% or spread payments, maybe using the
lack of the above safeguards as a bargaining tool?
I don't hold much hope but any advice / experience from you guys would
be much appreciated.
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
"rmg" <rmgwmx@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1179155387.920306.157420@u30g2000hsc.googlegr oups.com...
> My brother managed to loose his P990 on the Tube on Saturday night.
Does he have phone insurance? Has he contacted the police?
He should have contacted orange as soon as he noticed his phone was missing
and they would have barred the phone and SIM.
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
"lon" <reply@not.valid.com> wrote in message
news:f29ugm$sip$1@news.datemas.de
> "rmg" <rmgwmx@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1179155387.920306.157420@u30g2000hsc.googlegr oups.com...
> > My brother managed to loose his P990 on the Tube on
> > Saturday night.
>
> Does he have phone insurance? Has he contacted the police?
>
> He should have contacted orange as soon as he noticed his
> phone was missing and they would have barred the phone
> and SIM.
It's already been mentioned he didn't realise until the following day. My
guess is he'll be liable for all calls up to then.
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
Alex cotgreaves <family.ck@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> He is liable until the phone is reported and barred sorry.
>
> This happens a lot. A friend of mine is a retail O2 manager and he gets this
> probably once-twice a week.
>
> People get really shirty when they are faced with the harsh (Read expensive)
> truth about this.
>
> Although insurance is expensive it is an option.
Another reason I'm glad I moved to PAYG a while back.
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
rmgwmx@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
> My brother managed to loose his P990 on the Tube on Saturday night.
>
> To make matters worse he didn't realise until Sunday afternoon
> (hangover) and in that time some cunt has managed to run up a big bill
> calling pr0n and international lines.
>
> He is still waiting for a final amount but im guessing its a few
> hundred quid.
>
> Now I know that he is liable for all call charges up to the point
> where it was reported lost.
>
> What im wondering is
>
> A - Is there any suspicious use system in place on the Orange network
> that stops calls working once the bill has reached a certain amount or
> if a large number of calls are made to Premium rate numbers?
Yes there is, it's called a credit alert bar. Each individuals trigger
level is different.
> B - If the bill is huge can anything be done with Orange in terms of
> mitigation, e.g. can we pay 50% or spread payments, maybe using the
> lack of the above safeguards as a bargaining tool?
You could certainly try to negotiate a payment plan, but you won't be
able to use the "lack of safeguards" argument because there are
safeguards, in your brothers case the trigger level may not have been
met. Also, if you do go on a payment plan don't expect to be able to use
the phone for outgoing stuff in the meantime, you'll be put on incoming
only and no voicemail until the balance is restored.
--
Regards
Jon
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
family.ck@ntlworld.com declared for all the world to hear...
> He is liable until the phone is reported and barred sorry.
>
> This happens a lot. A friend of mine is a retail O2 manager and he gets this
> probably once-twice a week.
>
> People get really shirty when they are faced with the harsh (Read expensive)
> truth about this.
>
> Although insurance is expensive it is an option.
Insurance only covers you for calls after the report of the loss/theft
anyway, so it wont help with the bill. It will replace the phone though.
--
Regards
Jon
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
Jon <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote:
> TheClaw@lobster.invalid declared for all the world to hear...
[]
> > PAYG, as mentioned.
>
> On a P990?
Why on earth not?
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
d4g4hd@yahoo.co.uk declared for all the world to hear...
> Jon <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote:
>
> > TheClaw@lobster.invalid declared for all the world to hear...
> []
> > > PAYG, as mentioned.
> >
> > On a P990?
>
> Why on earth not?
Because by the time you've paid £350 for the device you might as well
have gone for a contract and got it for £0.00 with a shed load of
inclusive airtime thrown in.
--
Regards
Jon
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
rmg wrote:
>
> Now I know that he is liable for all call charges up to the point
> where it was reported lost.
I wouldnt have thought that was correct. As long as he acted reasonably, and
wasnt intentionally tardy in reporting its loss, he shouldnt be responsible
for any calls. A crime has being committed, he must get himself a crime
number from the police (it is all they seem to be useful for).
I cant see, him being the victim of a crime, being liable for the call
charges (assuming he wasnt careless).
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
In message <5as4bsF2pmlqcU1@mid.individual.net>, Gaz <gazter@msn.com>
writes
>
>I cant see, him being the victim of a crime, being liable for the call
>charges (assuming he wasnt careless).
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
Jon <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote:
> d4g4hd@yahoo.co.uk declared for all the world to hear...
> > Jon <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote:
> >
> > > TheClaw@lobster.invalid declared for all the world to hear...
> > []
> > > > PAYG, as mentioned.
> > >
> > > On a P990?
> >
> > Why on earth not?
>
> Because by the time you've paid £350 for the device you might as well
> have gone for a contract and got it for £0.00 with a shed load of
> inclusive airtime thrown in.
Contracts are not necessarily worth it, regardless of phone cost. The
mobile companies don't give away the phones for 'free' out of the
goodness of their hearts.
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
On Mon, 14 May 2007 23:02:42 +0100, "dave @ stejonda"
<no$spam!delete&abuse%dave@stejonda.freeuk.com> wrote:
The thing here is why, when phones are lost, are they always found by
someone whos first thought is "MUST RING ABROAD AND PORN LINES"and
never someone like me who would just chuck the sim and keep the
handset...
......sorry, I meant hand it in to the local police station :-)
> > He is liable until the phone is reported and barred sorry.
> >
> > This happens a lot. A friend of mine is a retail O2 manager and he
> > gets this
> > probably once-twice a week.
> >
> > People get really shirty when they are faced with the harsh (Read
> > expensive)
> > truth about this.
> >
> > Although insurance is expensive it is an option.
> Another reason I'm glad I moved to PAYG a while back.
One reason I never went off PAYG. (Minimal use another)
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
Gaz wrote:
> rmg wrote:
>> Now I know that he is liable for all call charges up to the point
>> where it was reported lost.
>
>
> I wouldnt have thought that was correct. As long as he acted reasonably, and
> wasnt intentionally tardy in reporting its loss, he shouldnt be responsible
> for any calls. A crime has being committed, he must get himself a crime
> number from the police (it is all they seem to be useful for).
>
> I cant see, him being the victim of a crime, being liable for the call
> charges (assuming he wasnt careless).
>
> Gaz
Being a victim of a crime doesn't suddenly release people from their
financial obligations.
For example, John Doe has a £50,000 car which be bought on a loan and
for some reason he insured 3rd party only. Car is parked on a street
and the next morning John finds his car completely flattened along with
a number of other cars in the street. Local radio is reporting that
someone stole a tank from a local museum and went on a joy ride,
trashing a number of cars in the process. The offender fled the scene
before the police could arrive (very high speed tank!).
His car is written off, yet he still owes the £50k to the bank. He
cannot claim on insurance (he didn't buy fully comp) and cannot claim
off the guy who stole the tank as a.) he's not been identified and b.)
he's probably not insured for tanks...
So, just because he's the innocent victim of a crime, doesn't change the
fact he owes £50k and doesn't have a car.
In this case, the guy lost his phone and didn't realise it was missing
until the next day or so. The networks say you are not liable for any
charges made after reporting the phone stolen. This is because they
disable the SIM in the phone, and maybe report the IMEI of the handset
as stolen and block that too. If you take 2 weeks to report it,
ultimately that's your fault (and your liability), not the network's.
If the network takes 2 weeks to block the SIM after reporting missing -
that's their fault (and their liability).
What you're actually suggesting is that if a phone is stolen, the
liability for all calls goes on the network operator, even if the owner
doesn't report the phone stolen for a period of time (with good reason).
I very much doubt there's any legal requirement for mobile network
operators to do this.
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
In message <5atj2sF2pt4a3U1@mid.individual.net>, David Hearn
<dave@NOswampieSPAM.org.uk> writes
>Gaz wrote:
>> I cant see, him being the victim of a crime, being liable for the
>>call charges (assuming he wasnt careless).
>> Gaz
>
>
>What you're actually suggesting is that if a phone is stolen, the
>liability for all calls goes on the network operator, even if the owner
>doesn't report the phone stolen for a period of time (with good reason).
>
>I very much doubt there's any legal requirement for mobile network
>operators to do this.
>
I doubt that there is any legal requirement but I suppose that on
compassionate grounds one thing that NetWork could do would be to reduce
the liability by charging those calls at cost rather that at the premium
rate which includes their profit margin. Unlikely but as a compromise
it may be worth asking about however I don't think that Mobile Ops are
known for their compassion, but who knows it could happen if you ask
nicely.
--
Paul Harris
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
In article <1hy456x.lmdknj1lzn7niN%TheClaw@lobster.invalid> , TheClaw
<TheClaw@lobster.invalid> writes
>Monthly call limit, say £50.
No mobile operator I've ever known of will do this. Even some (CPW?) who
offer such low monthly limits find the network operator will raise the
limit to 200 ish after a month or two. That way they get to be owed more
money.
Most operators have a limit, which they won't let an account go above -
even if it's been managed properly and all the bills paid on time, etc.
I hope your bro has not been used to large monthly bills with a
correspondingly high credit limit. The trouble with this is that the
call charges on monthly accounts tend to hit the account only a day or
two after the call is made. No 1 son (who has the brain of a gnat) left
a phone with a "friend". After a couple of days they barred the phone/
SIM at about 150. By the time the final 24/36 hours' worth of calls had
hit the account it was at 400 :-(
--
Peter
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
Helen Deborah Vecht <helenvecht@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> d4g4hd@yahoo.co.uk (David Horne, _the_ chancellor (*))typed
>
>
> > Alex cotgreaves <family.ck@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > > He is liable until the phone is reported and barred sorry.
> > >
> > > This happens a lot. A friend of mine is a retail O2 manager and he
> > > gets this
> > > probably once-twice a week.
> > >
> > > People get really shirty when they are faced with the harsh (Read
> > > expensive)
> > > truth about this.
> > >
> > > Although insurance is expensive it is an option.
>
> > Another reason I'm glad I moved to PAYG a while back.
>
> One reason I never went off PAYG. (Minimal use another)
I use the phone a fair bit, but I still find PAYG cheaper than a
contract- and the best thing about it is that everything is inclusive,
all the time- even roaming.
--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
David Horne- http://www.davidhorne.net
(don't email yahoo address) usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
David Hearn wrote:
> Gaz wrote:
>> rmg wrote:
>>> Now I know that he is liable for all call charges up to the point
>>> where it was reported lost.
>>
>>
>> I wouldnt have thought that was correct. As long as he acted reasonably,
>> and
>> wasnt intentionally tardy in reporting its loss, he shouldnt be
>> responsible
>> for any calls. A crime has being committed, he must get himself a crime
>> number from the police (it is all they seem to be useful for).
>>
>> I cant see, him being the victim of a crime, being liable for the call
>> charges (assuming he wasnt careless).
>>
>> Gaz
>
> Being a victim of a crime doesn't suddenly release people from their
> financial obligations.
>
> For example, John Doe has a £50,000 car which be bought on a loan and
> for some reason he insured 3rd party only. Car is parked on a street
> and the next morning John finds his car completely flattened along with
> a number of other cars in the street. Local radio is reporting that
> someone stole a tank from a local museum and went on a joy ride,
> trashing a number of cars in the process. The offender fled the scene
> before the police could arrive (very high speed tank!).
>
> His car is written off, yet he still owes the £50k to the bank. He
> cannot claim on insurance (he didn't buy fully comp) and cannot claim
> off the guy who stole the tank as a.) he's not been identified and b.)
> he's probably not insured for tanks...
>
No your comparison does not work. It is not the capital loss of the phone we
are talking about, but the use of the phone for criminal activity following
its theft.
If we use the car analogy, if it was stolen, and then used to rob a bank,
are you saying that original owner is responsible for the loss of the banks
money???
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
gazter@msn.com declared for all the world to hear...
> rmg wrote:
> >
> > Now I know that he is liable for all call charges up to the point
> > where it was reported lost.
>
>
> I wouldnt have thought that was correct. As long as he acted reasonably, and
> wasnt intentionally tardy in reporting its loss, he shouldnt be responsible
> for any calls. A crime has being committed, he must get himself a crime
> number from the police (it is all they seem to be useful for).
>
> I cant see, him being the victim of a crime, being liable for the call
> charges (assuming he wasnt careless).
He wasn't the victim of a crime, he lost his phone. Thats not criminal,
it's careless.
--
Regards
Jon
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
"Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.20b2d3995e88a4cc98a9bc@text.usenet.plus.n et...
> family.ck@ntlworld.com declared for all the world to hear...
>> He is liable until the phone is reported and barred sorry.
>>
>> This happens a lot. A friend of mine is a retail O2 manager and he gets
>> this
>> probably once-twice a week.
>>
>> People get really shirty when they are faced with the harsh (Read
>> expensive)
>> truth about this.
>>
>> Although insurance is expensive it is an option.
>
> Insurance only covers you for calls after the report of the loss/theft
> anyway, so it wont help with the bill. It will replace the phone though.
Some policies do offer limited cover for unauthorised or fraudulent calls:
The same page also contains this ambiguous gem:
5. Any loss involving a SIM (subscriber identity module) card.
which reads to me that if a SIM card is involved in the loss of your
mobile (which it will be) they will not cover the claim. Even if you are
successful you'll most likely get a refurb:
REPLACEMENT
This policy offers replacement only and is not a replacement as new
policy. If the electronic equipment cannot be replaced with an identical
electronic equipment of the same age and condition, we will replace it
with one of comparable specification or the equivalent value taking into
account the age and condition of the original electronic equipment.
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
Jon wrote:
> He wasn't the victim of a crime, he lost his phone. Thats not criminal,
> it's careless.
Using someone else's phone without their permission is the same as
gaining pecuniary advantage by deception and that's fraud which is a
criminal offence.
Re: Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed!
"Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.20b4b85466a884f198a9cc@text.usenet.plus.n et...
> hotmail.com@dgareth.spm declared for all the world to hear...
>> Some policies do offer limited cover for unauthorised or fraudulent
>> calls:
>>
>> http://www.insurance4mobiles.co.uk/fraud.htm
>
> Their (your?) T&Cs would seem to suggest otherwise:
>
> 13. The cost of any unauthorized calls following the theft, accidental
> loss or damage of a mobile phone or PDA.
>
> http://www.insurance4mobiles.co.uk/terms.htm
No, it is confusing but they cover fraudulent calls following notification
in the traditional way and fraudulent calls before notification with a £100
cover limit.
A £100 credit limit on the account should then be sufficient at least in
some circumstances - iirc Virgin Mobile offer this and provide SMS alert
when the limit is approaching.
Stolen phone - big bill :-( - damage reduction needed! 
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