Wiggling out of an Orange contract / beating them with a stick

Hi folks,

Long tale of woe...but the summary is :

How binding is an Orange contract? after my last renewal I didn't sign
anything and the contract I bought (via a 3rd party) isn't the one
that Orange have actually given me - but I'm stuck.


A few months ago I had an old SPV on Orange Everyday 50 (which I've
been on for the 7/8 years I've been with Orange). I wanted to upgrade
to an M600 but Orange were perpetually out of stock online and in all
my local shops.

Eventually I noticed mobiles.co.uk had an M600 in stock and available
on one of the dolphin contracts. Result...phone I wanted and the
tariff I wanted to change to. (insert cautionary tales of buying from
shonky online phone shops - noted and not going to happen again)

After contacting mobiles.co.uk this was going to cost me tuppence to
do and I could just transfer my number etc over with no problems
(basically the usual orange upgrade path). This was on an 18 month
contract.

So I went ahead. Everything seemed to go ok, I got the phone and
phoned Orange to activate and confirmed with them that it was on the
dolphin plan and that my number was moving across etc. So far so good.

Until I got my first bill. I was still on my everyday 50 tariff....all
those 'free' texts I thought I'd been using with wild abandon over the
month actually cost me a ton of cash.

I phoned orange who told me that they couldn't change my tariff as :

- I can only do that when I start a new contract (I explained I had
just upgraded and thought this was a new contract...didn't really seem
to register).

- Orange couldn't change it as mobiles.co.uk initiated the contract
(?) and told me to speak to them

- Had a couple of back and forths with mobiles who said that instead
of dolphin Orange were giving me a £2 line rental discount every
month. After looking at my bill more closely, this was indeed the case
- although I was never informed nor agreed to it. They also suggested
that orange didn't offer the dolphin upgrade for everyday 50.

- Mobiles.co.uk promised to get it fixed but - surprise - never did
and I gave up chasing them.

I've put up with it for a few months but my monthly bills are now
double what they would be if I were on the dolphin plan as I'd
originally 'purchased' so I'm a bit tired.

I'm basically wondering where I stand with Orange?

I didn't sign a bit of paper for this new contract, the contract isn't
what I initially 'bought' and was changed without my consent, I had a
verbal confirmation from an Orange rep (no proof of course) that I was
going onto dolphin and I don't understand why Orange are refusing to
help as all contact I have is with orange, not mobiles.co.uk. I.e
bills and paperwork come from orange and I dd orange (which wasn't
touched - same one set up way back when I first joined them years
ago).

So..I either want to -

- hit orange with a stick and get them to switch me to dolphin for no
kindof fee or contract extension (if there was a moderate fee involved
I would also consider this but that's not the ideal solution)

- Bin them and go elsewhere (along with other things - I'm getting a
bit sick of them) without having to give them a penny for their one
sided non existant contract. I'll send them back their m600 if they
want but any chance of keeping it is a bonus.

I'm no legal or phone industry expert so...what are my chances /
options in this situation? At the moment I'm locked into a tariff I
don't want and didn't ask for that is costing me a ton of money for
another year.

I can already hear the violins

Thanks for any help...even if it's just to confirm how stupid I am.

Kev

kevin.tomlinson@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
> How binding is an Orange contract?

About as binding as they come!

> after my last renewal I didn't sign anything

Not always necessary.

> - Orange couldn't change it as mobiles.co.uk initiated the contract
> (?) and told me to speak to them

Correct. They have failed to request your tariff change and it's down to
them to fix it.

> - Had a couple of back and forths with mobiles who said that instead
> of dolphin Orange were giving me a =A32 line rental discount every
> month.

mobiles.co.uk would have selected that from a drop down list on the web-
based upgrade system. It is them who have cocked it up, not Orange.

> After looking at my bill more closely, this was indeed the case
> - although I was never informed nor agreed to it. They also suggested
> that orange didn't offer the dolphin upgrade for everyday 50.

That is a lie.

> - Mobiles.co.uk promised to get it fixed but - surprise - never did
> and I gave up chasing them.

Trading standards? It's easily fixed. Hassle them to call their dealer
manager, dealer manager calls Orange, query goes to the RMA team who can
pretty much connect anything to anything.

> I've put up with it for a few months but my monthly bills are now
> double what they would be if I were on the dolphin plan as I'd
> originally 'purchased' so I'm a bit tired.
>
> I'm basically wondering where I stand with Orange?

Orange have done nothing wrong. Your beef is with mobiles.co.uk. Get
shitty with them.

> I didn't sign a bit of paper for this new contract

You don't need to. Acceptance and use of the phone is enough. The fact
that mobiles.co.uk have cocked up your tariff change is for them to sort
out.

> I don't understand why Orange are refusing to
> help as all contact I have is with orange, not mobiles.co.uk.

But mobiles.co.uk are the dealer, and at the point of connection/upgrade
the dealer is able to instruct Orange in certain things that are only
do-able at the point of connection/upgrade.

> So..I either want to -
>
> - hit orange with a stick and get them to switch me to dolphin for no
> kindof fee or contract extension (if there was a moderate fee involved
> I would also consider this but that's not the ideal solution)

mobile.co.uk need to do the beating for you. It's their error, not
Orange's, but for Orange to fix it mobile.co.uk will have to admit their
mistake.

> - Bin them and go elsewhere

You will not be allowed to cancel your contract over this.

> I'm no legal or phone industry expert so...what are my chances /
> options in this situation?

mobiles.co.uk are 100% responsible. Persue them.

> Thanks for any help...even if it's just to confirm how stupid I am.

You are not stupid. mobiles.co.uk have clicked the wrong radio button on
a website, and because they have about as much regard for customer
satisfaction as many other distance sellers they don't take as much care
when doing stuff.
--
Regards
Jon

"Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.205689f5c67d861598a7c9@text.usenet.plus.n et
> kevin.tomlinson@gmail.com declared for all the world to
> hear...
> > How binding is an Orange contract?
>
> About as binding as they come!
>
> > after my last renewal I didn't sign anything
>
> Not always necessary.

Then it should be.

No signature, no contract.


Ivor

"Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:5540egF23me97U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Jon" <spam@jonparker.plus.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.205689f5c67d861598a7c9@text.usenet.plus.n et
>> kevin.tomlinson@gmail.com declared for all the world to
>> hear...
>> > How binding is an Orange contract?
>>
>> About as binding as they come!
>>
>> > after my last renewal I didn't sign anything
>>
>> Not always necessary.
>
> Then it should be.
>
> No signature, no contract.

I am still amazed that when you upgrade and agree to another 12/18 months
the network doesn't even send out a single letter confirming the new
contract.

On 5 Mar, 20:12, Jon <s...@jonparker.plus.com> wrote:
> kevin.tomlin...@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
>
> > How binding is an Orange contract?
>
> About as binding as they come!
>
> > after my last renewal I didn't sign anything
>
> Not always necessary.
>
> > - Orange couldn't change it as mobiles.co.uk initiated the contract
> > (?) and told me to speak to them
>
> Correct. They have failed to request your tariff change and it's down to
> them to fix it.
>
> > - Had a couple of back and forths with mobiles who said that instead
> > of dolphin Orange were giving me a =A32 line rental discount every
> > month.
>
> mobiles.co.uk would have selected that from a drop down list on the web-
> based upgrade system. It is them who have cocked it up, not Orange.
>
> > After looking at my bill more closely, this was indeed the case
> > - although I was never informed nor agreed to it. They also suggested
> > that orange didn't offer the dolphin upgrade for everyday 50.
>
> That is a lie.
>
> > - Mobiles.co.uk promised to get it fixed but - surprise - never did
> > and I gave up chasing them.
>
> Trading standards? It's easily fixed. Hassle them to call their dealer
> manager, dealer manager calls Orange, query goes to the RMA team who can
> pretty much connect anything to anything.
>
> > I've put up with it for a few months but my monthly bills are now
> > double what they would be if I were on the dolphin plan as I'd
> > originally 'purchased' so I'm a bit tired.
>
> > I'm basically wondering where I stand with Orange?
>
> Orange have done nothing wrong. Your beef is with mobiles.co.uk. Get
> shitty with them.
>
> > I didn't sign a bit of paper for this new contract
>
> You don't need to. Acceptance and use of the phone is enough. The fact
> that mobiles.co.uk have cocked up your tariff change is for them to sort
> out.
>
> > I don't understand why Orange are refusing to
> > help as all contact I have is with orange, not mobiles.co.uk.
>
> But mobiles.co.uk are the dealer, and at the point of connection/upgrade
> the dealer is able to instruct Orange in certain things that are only
> do-able at the point of connection/upgrade.
>
> > So..I either want to -
>
> > - hit orange with a stick and get them to switch me to dolphin for no
> > kindof fee or contract extension (if there was a moderate fee involved
> > I would also consider this but that's not the ideal solution)
>
> mobile.co.uk need to do the beating for you. It's their error, not
> Orange's, but for Orange to fix it mobile.co.uk will have to admit their
> mistake.
>
> > - Bin them and go elsewhere
>
> You will not be allowed to cancel your contract over this.
>
> > I'm no legal or phone industry expert so...what are my chances /
> > options in this situation?
>
> mobiles.co.uk are 100% responsible. Persue them.
>
> > Thanks for any help...even if it's just to confirm how stupid I am.
>
> You are not stupid. mobiles.co.uk have clicked the wrong radio button on
> a website, and because they have about as much regard for customer
> satisfaction as many other distance sellers they don't take as much care
> when doing stuff.
> --
> Regards
> Jon

Jon - I think the point here is that Orange are taking this guys money
but they don't want to help - Even though they can.

I know what you are saying but at the end of the day, Mobiles.co.uk
are an ORANGE reseller and the 'contract' is with Orange, not
mobiles.co.uk.

Why can't Orange just change the poor guys tariff?

On Mar 5, 8:12 pm, Jon <s...@jonparker.plus.com> wrote:
> kevin.tomlin...@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
>
> mobiles.co.ukwould have selected that from a drop down list on the web-
> based upgrade system. It is them who have cocked it up, not Orange.

FYI ED50 causes PAYMUP7 errors on Enable all the time, necessitating a
phone call.

> > -Mobiles.co.ukpromised to get it fixed but - surprise - never did
> > and I gave up chasing them.
>
> Trading standards? It's easily fixed. Hassle them to call their dealer
> manager, dealer manager calls Orange, query goes to the RMA team who can
> pretty much connect anything to anything.

There is a dealer manager involved, and this is where the holdup is. I
have emailed Kevin separately regarding this matter.

> You are not stupid.mobiles.co.ukhave clicked the wrong radio button on
> a website, and because they have about as much regard for customer
> satisfaction as many other distance sellers they don't take as much care
> when doing stuff.

Thanks for your review of mobiles.co.uk's customer service. Have you
ever used them?

matt.bowden1@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
> Jon - I think the point here is that Orange are taking this guys money
> but they don't want to help - Even though they can.

They can, but only on the instruction of the dealer. They would have to
admit their mistake for anything to happen, otherwise it could easily be
the customer trying to put one over on Orange.

> Why can't Orange just change the poor guys tariff?

Because the tariff he requested can only be applied for at the point of
connection/upgrade.
--
Regards
Jon

gridlock@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
> > mobiles.co.ukwould have selected that from a drop down list on the web-
> > based upgrade system. It is them who have cocked it up, not Orange.

> FYI ED50 causes PAYMUP7 errors on Enable all the time, necessitating a
> phone call.

FYI no it doesn't. I've done dozens. I also trust that you are reporting
such errors to the helpdesk?

> There is a dealer manager involved, and this is where the holdup is. I
> have emailed Kevin separately regarding this matter.

Then he should know what to do. The RMA team within Orange can make the
necessary tweaks.

> Thanks for your review of mobiles.co.uk's customer service. Have you
> ever used them?

Not personally, no. Seems clear to me that on this occasion they (you?)
have failed the customer.
--
Regards
Jon

Just a quick update..

I had an email from mobiles.co.uk (to the address my newsgroup post
contained..*not* the email they should have on file for me) offering
their apologies and informing me that my tariff is now correct.

I assume this is a direct result of Mr Gridlocks intervention in this
thread - in which case, thank you very much.

I should probably add that I could probably have chased mobiles.co.uk
more than I did (although I was fobbed off twice..once with an 'orange
manager is on holiday' ) and then just didn't hear from them. This
could have just been a legitimate mistake / mixup / delay.

Instead I figured I would be better off chasing Orange - as far as I'm
concerned, my contract is with them. All other products / services
I've purchased through a reseller have always resulted in me being
billed directly by the reseller with little or no direct contact with
the 'parent' organisation. Why Mobile companies should be different
I'm not sure.

It still baffles me that Orange would not help me. As has been
suggested, yes, I could have been a rogue customer trying a fast one -
but if any of the Orange reps I spoke to spent 5 minutes looking at
the details they'd find that I was phoning within a one month billing
cycle after an upgrade and that the tariff I was requesting would not
have cost me anymore money to upgrade to than the tariff they had kept
me on - therefore not much to defraud. Added to that the fact that
they have been *dying* to get me off Everyday 50 for a long time now I
was bemused that all of a sudden they would be unco-operative. At the
very least they could have taken it upon themselves to contact
mobiles.co.uk on my behalf and sort things out. Adding to this the
fact I've been diligently paying them monthly for the past 7/8 years I
figured I might qualify for some kindof 'customer loyalty' flag and be
cut a break.

>From some of the responses here it would seem that my logic is flawed
(when it comes to the uk mobile market anyway) although some people
have the same thoughts as me.

Thanks everyone for your help (Mr Gridlock), comments and explanations
of how the industry *actually* works rather than how I want it to
work

The outcome has been a bit surprising, but pleasant. I certainly
wasn't expecting it when I posted!

Thanks again, this thread has made interesting reading for me.

Kev

> It still baffles me that Orange would not help me. As has been
> suggested, yes, I could have been a rogue customer trying a fast one -
> but if any of the Orange reps I spoke to spent 5 minutes looking at
> the details they'd find that I was phoning within a one month billing
> cycle after an upgrade and that the tariff I was requesting would not
> have cost me anymore money to upgrade to than the tariff they had kept
> me on - therefore not much to defraud. Added to that the fact that
> they have been *dying* to get me off Everyday 50 for a long time now I
> was bemused that all of a sudden they would be unco-operative. At the
> very least they could have taken it upon themselves to contact
> mobiles.co.uk on my behalf and sort things out. Adding to this the
> fact I've been diligently paying them monthly for the past 7/8 years I
> figured I might qualify for some kindof 'customer loyalty' flag and be
> cut a break.

This was the point I was trying to make previously but Jon had his
corporate hat on. At the end of the day, you are paying Orange for a
service but I would argue that no service has been given. Orange are
quite happy to take your money (for the best part of 8 years as you
said) but do not want to help you when you need it.

There are plenty of threads on this forum that have said similar
things so it's not just a one off and quite a few of my friends and
colleagues have had similar experiences with Orange. They used to be
great which is why I stayed with them but as soon as my contract is
up, me and my £90 a month will be off!

matt.bowden1@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
> This was the point I was trying to make previously but Jon had his
> corporate hat on.

I don't own any headwear of any description!

> At the end of the day, you are paying Orange for a
> service but I would argue that no service has been given. Orange are
> quite happy to take your money (for the best part of 8 years as you
> said) but do not want to help you when you need it.

Changing stuff around like that can have significant financial
implications for the dealer, so any instructions to change things which
are to do with an upgrade/connection *have* to come from the upgrading
dealer.
--
Regards
Jon

In message <MPG.205b9c44deeaa04498a7e7@text.usenet.plus.net >, Jon
<spam@jonparker.plus.com> writes
>matt.bowden1@gmail.com declared for all the world to hear...
>> This was the point I was trying to make previously but Jon had his
>> corporate hat on.
>
>I don't own any headwear of any description!
>
Well it looks like a wig from here and just what is that pointy thing
you are wearing on your head then?

:-)
--
Paul Harris