Basic question on VoIP

Hello,

I have a slow ADSL... (512kb/s) however, I can see that if I make a VoIP
phone call AND if I download a file at the same time, I have some trouble
with my communication. (Not really suprising ... :-(

- Do you think that this desappear with quicker broadband ?
- Or is there a trick to keep a good communication when somebody else is
downloading at the same time on the network ??

Ta.

Stephan

Stephane M wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have a slow ADSL... (512kb/s) however, I can see that if I make a VoIP
> phone call AND if I download a file at the same time, I have some trouble
> with my communication. (Not really suprising ... :-(
>
> - Do you think that this desappear with quicker broadband ?
> - Or is there a trick to keep a good communication when somebody else is
> downloading at the same time on the network ??
>
> Ta.
>
> Stephan
>
>

I used to be on 512k and upgraded to 1mb and found it to be better.
Sometimes when i was on 512 people would tell me that there was 'blips'.
I found that these blips was when my email application was
autochecking for new mail.

However, in order to really answer your question - what are you using
for VOIP?

"Stephane M" <Stephane@M.com> wrote in message
news:dbi74s$mgl$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> Hello,
>
> I have a slow ADSL... (512kb/s) however, I can see that if I make a VoIP
> phone call AND if I download a file at the same time, I have some trouble
> with my communication. (Not really suprising ... :-(
>
> - Do you think that this desappear with quicker broadband ?

No. Given more bandwidth, your download will be faster but will probably
still swamp out the VoIP call.

> - Or is there a trick to keep a good communication when somebody else is
> downloading at the same time on the network ??
>

Maybe.

The issue is that VoIP requires a certain bandwidth but without anything
stopping it, other things such as downloads grab all the badnwidth leaving
the VoIP call starved. You can reconfigure your network (if its not
already) like this...

Internet--- ADSL --- VoIP ATA --- Router/Switch/Hub -- Computer
|
+-- phone

However, this is still not 100% safe since this will protect the route up
from ATA to internet and might not help with the downstream. However its
possible that the ATA may also slow the downlink by acknowledging TCP
packets more slowly than it would otherwise - I'm no TCP algorithm expert
though.

For "real" VoIP installations, people create VoIP backbones with proper
Quality of Service (QoS) set up to protect the voice from the data. You can
do the same by stopping downloads whilst your on the phone.

Of course this all assumes that the ISP doesn't swamp your VoIP data
either - and you have no control on this.

Paul DS

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:38:48 +0100, "Stephane M" <Stephane@M.com>
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I have a slow ADSL... (512kb/s) however, I can see that if I make a VoIP
>phone call AND if I download a file at the same time, I have some trouble
>with my communication. (Not really suprising ... :-(
>
>- Do you think that this desappear with quicker broadband ?
>- Or is there a trick to keep a good communication when somebody else is
>downloading at the same time on the network ??

There is a trick, and the trick is known as QoS (Quality of Service).

QoS is a facility available on some routers and it provides a method
of giving your VoIP traffic higher priority than other connections so
as to reduce the delays to it which result in interruptions to the
voice signal. If you are doing a download at the same time as making a
voice call, the download will be throttled back as necessary to
maintain sufficient bandwidth for the voice traffic.

You might want to check out this list of routers which are reported to
support QoS.

http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index....e=VOIP+Routers

Chris

"Chris Blunt" <chris_blunt@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:10bpd1l8ffp6f6440ce7mc4di7mivjsdvq@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 07:38:48 +0100, "Stephane M" <Stephane@M.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >I have a slow ADSL... (512kb/s) however, I can see that if I make a VoIP
> >phone call AND if I download a file at the same time, I have some trouble
> >with my communication. (Not really suprising ... :-(
> >
> >- Do you think that this desappear with quicker broadband ?
> >- Or is there a trick to keep a good communication when somebody else is
> >downloading at the same time on the network ??
>
> There is a trick, and the trick is known as QoS (Quality of Service).
>
> QoS is a facility available on some routers and it provides a method
> of giving your VoIP traffic higher priority than other connections so
> as to reduce the delays to it which result in interruptions to the
> voice signal. If you are doing a download at the same time as making a
> voice call, the download will be throttled back as necessary to
> maintain sufficient bandwidth for the voice traffic.
>
> You might want to check out this list of routers which are reported to
> support QoS.
>
> http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index....e=VOIP+Routers
>
bewildering selection
Roman

>> http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index....e=VOIP+Routers
>>
>Roman:
>bewildering selection

And its not even up to date / complete.
Zyxel 2602HW has 2 VoiP ports and QoS and the HWL version has pass-through
to the POTS line too.
Regards,
Martin

"Martin²" <never@give.one> wrote in message
news:42dd970d$0$2868$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> >> http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index....e=VOIP+Routers
> >>
> >Roman:
> >bewildering selection
>
> And its not even up to date / complete.
> Zyxel 2602HW has 2 VoiP ports and QoS and the HWL version has pass-through
> to the POTS line too.
> Regards,
> Martin

I am reading this group because I am trying to establish whether my son, who
is setting up a (very) small business venture, could possibly save some
money using VoIP compared to standard BT landline but have a reliable
service with comparable voice quality without getting bogged down with
technicalities. He will have broadband connection. All he needs, at least to
start with, is an equivalent to a single BT line with basic facilities, such
as answerphone and call divert, a local (London) number plus possibly 0845
or 0870 number. However, the service needs to be reliable and there should
not be any noticeable blips or other manifestations of problems with other
activity on the broadband connection. I think if the voice comms would take
priority in such a way that stopping of downloads would be done
automatically without need for human to intervene that could be acceptable.
Roman

Roman:
>mall business venture, could possibly save some
>money using VoIP compared to standard BT landline but have a reliable
>service with comparable voice quality

Reputedly you get reliable service from Gradwell, Vonage and perhaps
Voiphone,
but they all charge rental, which rather limits any savings.

>I think if the voice comms would take
>priority in such a way that stopping of downloads would be done
>automatically

For that you need a router with QoS (quality of service) such as Zyxel 2602
HW / HWL or Draytek 2500V / 2600V / VG. But you need to set the QoS
parameters, not as simple as it should be, especially on the Draytek.
Regards,
Martin

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:p0utd1dc6gb9l84qgi0rhfe7qj58n26344@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:20:12 +0100, "Martin²" <never@give.one> wrote:
>
>>Reputedly you get reliable service from Gradwell, Vonage and perhaps
>>Voiphone,
>>but they all charge rental, which rather limits any savings.

> Vonage does NOT charge rental they charge 9.99 a month inclusive of
> VAT and ALL calls to geographical numbers in the whole of the UK
> and ALL of Ireland . What is BT charging for their all calls package
> is it twenty eight quid a month or something and that only includes
> calls to northern Ireland not the south !!.

If it's a charge payable every month regardless of how much or how little
you use it, then in my book it's rental. I can't have the service without
paying it, so as far as I'm concerned it's rental by another name.

As I told you before, I'd struggle to make £9.99 of calls in a year, never
mind a month..! Most of my calls are to mobiles, so I use the mobile for
that, or Sipgate users, which are free anyway, so what I'd do with a
tenner's worth of calls to landlines in a month I have no idea..!

Ivor

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:p0utd1dc6gb9l84qgi0rhfe7qj58n26344@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 01:20:12 +0100, "Martin²" <never@give.one> wrote:
>
> >Reputedly you get reliable service from Gradwell, Vonage and perhaps
> >Voiphone,
> >but they all charge rental, which rather limits any savings.
> Vonage does NOT charge rental they charge 9.99 a month inclusive of
> VAT and ALL calls to geographical numbers in the whole of the UK
> and ALL of Ireland . What is BT charging for their all calls package
> is it twenty eight quid a month or something and that only includes
> calls to northern Ireland not the south !!.

If it is a fixed non-reducible monthly charge then it is what would normally
be understood as a rental whether it includes certain types of call without
further charge or not. It may be much better rental than BT equivalent but
it is rental.
Roman

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9i3vd1h7uvbbfv9v5m1unhrfnoic6fqrb3@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:14:47 GMT, "r_mervart"
> <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>If it is a fixed non-reducible monthly charge then it is what would
>>normally
>>be understood as a rental whether it includes certain types of call
>>without
>>further charge or not.

> No you are wrong if I took what you are saying above to be correct
> then our city transport operators are charging bus rental when they
> say I can travel anywhere in the city at any time of the day or night
> for a fixed monthly fee.
> Now I have a choice I can either buy the journeys in bulk at a very
> much reduced rate or I can pay per journey and it is exactly the same
> with Vonage and many other phone companies with the exception of BT
> who clearly state their top package includes line RENTAL and ALL
> calls. You cannot rent a line from Vonage has they have no lines to
> rent .

Are you telling me that I can have a number from Vonage and not pay a
monthly charge but can use the same system as Sipgate and add credit like
a PAYG mobile..? If so I can't see it on their website anywhere.

If it's a charge I have to pay in order to use the service then it's
rental in all but name.

Ivor

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:srdvd1hhsg0vt2p55kngu66gga5ddvmcht@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:51:29 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>Are you telling me that I can have a number from Vonage and not pay a
>>monthly charge but can use the same system as Sipgate and add credit
>>like
>>a PAYG mobile..? If so I can't see it on their website anywhere.
> No
>>If it's a charge I have to pay in order to use the service then it's
>>rental in all but name.

> No it isn't a charge you have to pay in order to use the service Ivor
> in the sence you are meaning ,you have to pay a charge in order to
> make calls just has you have to pay a charge in order to make calls
> via Sipgate or any other VOIP telecoms provider unless it is to other
> users of their service and how do you know if you are calling a
> Sipgate/Vonage or any other providers number anyway other than calling
> the number and see if you are either connected or get told to put some
> money in your account.

I wish you'd put paragraph breaks in sometimes..!

But it *is* a charge I have to pay in order to use the service..! I can't
have a Vonage account without paying money every month whether I make any
calls or not, or can I..?

What if I don't make any calls..?

> Ivor I and others are paying Vonage for a high quality service and the
> service is of high quality in all respects and they provide a free
> phone number for customes to get in contact with them unlike a certain
> other operator who I shall not name that cannot even be bothered to
> answer customers emails anymore .

So if I don't make any calls I don't pay anything, is that right..? Where
does it say this on the website..?

> You said yourself the other night if you want quality you have to pay
> for it and I have proved this fact time and time again over the years,
> the differance between Sipgate and Vonage is like going in the London
> Hilton for dinner and going in Joe's cafe round the corner .

But I like sausage & chips..!

Ivor

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9i3vd1h7uvbbfv9v5m1unhrfnoic6fqrb3@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:14:47 GMT, "r_mervart"
> <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >If it is a fixed non-reducible monthly charge then it is what would
normally
> >be understood as a rental whether it includes certain types of call
without
> >further charge or not.
> No you are wrong if I took what you are saying above to be correct
> then our city transport operators are charging bus rental when they
> say I can travel anywhere in the city at any time of the day or night
> for a fixed monthly fee.
> Now I have a choice I can either buy the journeys in bulk at a very
> much reduced rate or I can pay per journey and it is exactly the same
> with Vonage and many other phone companies with the exception of BT
> who clearly state their top package includes line RENTAL and ALL
> calls. You cannot rent a line from Vonage has they have no lines to
> rent .
>
Mobile operators do not have lines to rent but charge a line rental or boast
about not charging the line rental (e.g. Virgin, EasyMobile) - which implies
they could do if they decided to. I do not want to get hang up on a meaning
of the word rental but to me there is a question of the payment of either
1) a fixed irreducible monthly fee or
2) no monthly fee at all and paying only for calls (pay as you go).

I am not saying what and who is better but as far as I understand it I do
not have that second option with Vonage. In other words, taking your
example, I do not have that option paying for just one bus journey. I just
want to be clear about it.
Thanks
Roman

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3gmvd1pgk2ehu40184l7rtf14ndiu4ll40@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 17:15:50 GMT, "r_mervart"
> <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
> >I do not have that option paying for just one bus journey. I just
> >want to be clear about it.
> Correct you pay them 9.99 a month if you make a 1000 calls or none it
> is that simple .
> This is another large argument that I have with Sipgate they offer a
> service which gives customers 1000 minutes a month for 5.99 but do
> they want paying 5.99 a month NO DO THEY HELL they want a tenner a
> month come what may they do not accept payments of less than a tenner
> which in my opinion is totally out of order .

OK, so I am clear on the first point now. The payment for service with
Sipgate, as you describe it, is rather strange. I presume you will not have
to pay another tenner until you made calls worth £10 even if it takes
longer than a month?
Roman

FACE IT IF YOU DONT LIKE VONAGE STOP BANGING ON ABOUT IT MERVART AND FIND
SOMETHING APPROPRIATE T YOUR NEEDS
"r_mervart" <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message
news:aLQDe.5469$Oe4.4245@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
> <Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9i3vd1h7uvbbfv9v5m1unhrfnoic6fqrb3@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:14:47 GMT, "r_mervart"
>> <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >If it is a fixed non-reducible monthly charge then it is what would
> normally
>> >be understood as a rental whether it includes certain types of call
> without
>> >further charge or not.
>> No you are wrong if I took what you are saying above to be correct
>> then our city transport operators are charging bus rental when they
>> say I can travel anywhere in the city at any time of the day or night
>> for a fixed monthly fee.
>> Now I have a choice I can either buy the journeys in bulk at a very
>> much reduced rate or I can pay per journey and it is exactly the same
>> with Vonage and many other phone companies with the exception of BT
>> who clearly state their top package includes line RENTAL and ALL
>> calls. You cannot rent a line from Vonage has they have no lines to
>> rent .
>>
> Mobile operators do not have lines to rent but charge a line rental or
> boast
> about not charging the line rental (e.g. Virgin, EasyMobile) - which
> implies
> they could do if they decided to. I do not want to get hang up on a
> meaning
> of the word rental but to me there is a question of the payment of either
> 1) a fixed irreducible monthly fee or
> 2) no monthly fee at all and paying only for calls (pay as you go).
>
> I am not saying what and who is better but as far as I understand it I do
> not have that second option with Vonage. In other words, taking your
> example, I do not have that option paying for just one bus journey. I
> just
> want to be clear about it.
> Thanks
> Roman
>
>

OH FFS WHY WOULD YO SIFN UP TO VONAGE IF YOU WERENT GOING TO MAKE ANY CALLS
YOU CLOWN YOURE CARRYING THIS ARGUMANT ON AND ON ARENT YOU--FACE IT VONAGE
ARE FAR BETTER THAN ANY OF THE OTHER VOIP CRAP AROUND
"Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:3k9t20Ft6hnrU1@individual.net...
>
> <Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:srdvd1hhsg0vt2p55kngu66gga5ddvmcht@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:51:29 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Are you telling me that I can have a number from Vonage and not pay a
>>>monthly charge but can use the same system as Sipgate and add credit like
>>>a PAYG mobile..? If so I can't see it on their website anywhere.
>> No
>>>If it's a charge I have to pay in order to use the service then it's
>>>rental in all but name.
>
>> No it isn't a charge you have to pay in order to use the service Ivor
>> in the sence you are meaning ,you have to pay a charge in order to
>> make calls just has you have to pay a charge in order to make calls
>> via Sipgate or any other VOIP telecoms provider unless it is to other
>> users of their service and how do you know if you are calling a
>> Sipgate/Vonage or any other providers number anyway other than calling
>> the number and see if you are either connected or get told to put some
>> money in your account.
>
> I wish you'd put paragraph breaks in sometimes..!
>
> But it *is* a charge I have to pay in order to use the service..! I can't
> have a Vonage account without paying money every month whether I make any
> calls or not, or can I..?
>
> What if I don't make any calls..?
>
>> Ivor I and others are paying Vonage for a high quality service and the
>> service is of high quality in all respects and they provide a free
>> phone number for customes to get in contact with them unlike a certain
>> other operator who I shall not name that cannot even be bothered to
>> answer customers emails anymore .
>
> So if I don't make any calls I don't pay anything, is that right..? Where
> does it say this on the website..?
>
>> You said yourself the other night if you want quality you have to pay
>> for it and I have proved this fact time and time again over the years,
>> the differance between Sipgate and Vonage is like going in the London
>> Hilton for dinner and going in Joe's cafe round the corner .
>
> But I like sausage & chips..!
>
> Ivor
>
>

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f8mvd15id70tifa3jofo7nbf96i7onk58d@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:54:32 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>>As I told you before, I'd struggle to make £9.99 of calls in a year,
>>never
>>mind a month..! Most of my calls are to mobiles, so I use the mobile for
>>that, or Sipgate users, which are free anyway, so what I'd do with a
>>tenner's worth of calls to landlines in a month I have no idea..!
>
> Ivor you have stated that you have both BT and TW land lines how do
> you justify paying line rental on TWO land lines on which you cannot
> make a single call with out paying a call charge when you are so
> vehemently opposed to paying line rental ??????. I have two at present
> also , the TW line should have been gone last Friday and would have
> been had TW not proved to me once again that they are has NONE
> customer oriented has Sipgate .

Firstly, what lines I have and what rentals I pay are my business. If you
really want to know, although I don't see why I should tell you, the BT
line is in the name of someone else in the household not me, so I don't
pay for it. I merely stated that Vonage *do* have a rental if you have to
pay that amount of money to have their service. I asked if there is a PAYG
option the same as Sipgate, I assume from your failure to reply that there
is no such option..?

Ivor

"Stefan Kaniuk" <s.kaniuk@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:QBRDe.4384$Hd4.2943@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> FACE IT IF YOU DONT LIKE VONAGE STOP BANGING ON ABOUT IT MERVART AND FIND
> SOMETHING APPROPRIATE T YOUR NEEDS
> "r_mervart" <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:aLQDe.5469$Oe4.4245@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > <Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:9i3vd1h7uvbbfv9v5m1unhrfnoic6fqrb3@4ax.com...
> >> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:14:47 GMT, "r_mervart"
> >> <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >If it is a fixed non-reducible monthly charge then it is what would
> > normally
> >> >be understood as a rental whether it includes certain types of call
> > without
> >> >further charge or not.
> >> No you are wrong if I took what you are saying above to be correct
> >> then our city transport operators are charging bus rental when they
> >> say I can travel anywhere in the city at any time of the day or night
> >> for a fixed monthly fee.
> >> Now I have a choice I can either buy the journeys in bulk at a very
> >> much reduced rate or I can pay per journey and it is exactly the same
> >> with Vonage and many other phone companies with the exception of BT
> >> who clearly state their top package includes line RENTAL and ALL
> >> calls. You cannot rent a line from Vonage has they have no lines to
> >> rent .
> >>
> > Mobile operators do not have lines to rent but charge a line rental or
> > boast
> > about not charging the line rental (e.g. Virgin, EasyMobile) - which
> > implies
> > they could do if they decided to. I do not want to get hang up on a
> > meaning
> > of the word rental but to me there is a question of the payment of
either
> > 1) a fixed irreducible monthly fee or
> > 2) no monthly fee at all and paying only for calls (pay as you go).
> >
> > I am not saying what and who is better but as far as I understand it I
do
> > not have that second option with Vonage. In other words, taking your
> > example, I do not have that option paying for just one bus journey. I
> > just
> > want to be clear about it.
> > Thanks
> > Roman

You have got a wrong end of the stick. I am not that far in my understanding
of the VoIP scene to make any conclusive judgements and I am not making
them, except that there is no need to top post and shout.
Roman

"r_mervart" <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FKRDe.10012$vv6.7876@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Stefan Kaniuk" <s.kaniuk@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:QBRDe.4384$Hd4.2943@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>> FACE IT IF YOU DONT LIKE VONAGE STOP BANGING ON ABOUT IT MERVART AND FIND
>> SOMETHING APPROPRIATE T YOUR NEEDS
>> "r_mervart" <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:aLQDe.5469$Oe4.4245@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >
>> > <Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>> > news:9i3vd1h7uvbbfv9v5m1unhrfnoic6fqrb3@4ax.com...
>> >> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:14:47 GMT, "r_mervart"
>> >> <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >If it is a fixed non-reducible monthly charge then it is what would
>> > normally
>> >> >be understood as a rental whether it includes certain types of call
>> > without
>> >> >further charge or not.
>> >> No you are wrong if I took what you are saying above to be correct
>> >> then our city transport operators are charging bus rental when they
>> >> say I can travel anywhere in the city at any time of the day or night
>> >> for a fixed monthly fee.
>> >> Now I have a choice I can either buy the journeys in bulk at a very
>> >> much reduced rate or I can pay per journey and it is exactly the same
>> >> with Vonage and many other phone companies with the exception of BT
>> >> who clearly state their top package includes line RENTAL and ALL
>> >> calls. You cannot rent a line from Vonage has they have no lines to
>> >> rent .
>> >>
>> > Mobile operators do not have lines to rent but charge a line rental or
>> > boast
>> > about not charging the line rental (e.g. Virgin, EasyMobile) - which
>> > implies
>> > they could do if they decided to. I do not want to get hang up on a
>> > meaning
>> > of the word rental but to me there is a question of the payment of
> either
>> > 1) a fixed irreducible monthly fee or
>> > 2) no monthly fee at all and paying only for calls (pay as you go).
>> >
>> > I am not saying what and who is better but as far as I understand it I
> do
>> > not have that second option with Vonage. In other words, taking your
>> > example, I do not have that option paying for just one bus journey. I
>> > just
>> > want to be clear about it.
>> > Thanks
>> > Roman
>
> You have got a wrong end of the stick. I am not that far in my
> understanding
> of the VoIP scene to make any conclusive judgements and I am not making
> them, except that there is no need to top post and shout.
> Roman
>
>
welll perhaps if you had several vonage numbers and used the absolutely
flawless and perfect service you would understand what it all measn.

Dont touch sipgate,gradwell or any of the others with a bargepole.

"Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:3ka7gdFsocegU1@individual.net...
>
> <Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:f8mvd15id70tifa3jofo7nbf96i7onk58d@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 02:54:32 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>>>As I told you before, I'd struggle to make £9.99 of calls in a year,
>>>never
>>>mind a month..! Most of my calls are to mobiles, so I use the mobile for
>>>that, or Sipgate users, which are free anyway, so what I'd do with a
>>>tenner's worth of calls to landlines in a month I have no idea..!
>>
>> Ivor you have stated that you have both BT and TW land lines how do
>> you justify paying line rental on TWO land lines on which you cannot
>> make a single call with out paying a call charge when you are so
>> vehemently opposed to paying line rental ??????. I have two at present
>> also , the TW line should have been gone last Friday and would have
>> been had TW not proved to me once again that they are has NONE
>> customer oriented has Sipgate .
>
> Firstly, what lines I have and what rentals I pay are my business. If you
> really want to know, although I don't see why I should tell you, the BT
> line is in the name of someone else in the household not me, so I don't
> pay for it. I merely stated that Vonage *do* have a rental if you have to
> pay that amount of money to have their service. I asked if there is a PAYG
> option the same as Sipgate, I assume from your failure to reply that there
> is no such option..?
>
> Ivor
>
>
on yur superiosr high horse again ivor, do you really think your better than
anyone else--i think not,you may be knowledgeabls but in the grand scheme of
things and considering you like to run people into the ground one would
suggest your really a little nothing in the grand scheme of things.

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:23:06 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:

>I assume from your failure to reply that there
>is no such option..?

their only option currently is a fixed monthly charge with included
hardware and included calls bundle.

Phil.
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !

"Phil Thompson" <phil.thompson@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:7auvd1p5pdsb0qrdahej04d8atlkbu2tbi@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:23:06 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>>I assume from your failure to reply that there
>>is no such option..?
>
> their only option currently is a fixed monthly charge with included
> hardware and included calls bundle.

In other words, a rental in all but name. Fixed monthy charge, indeed.
What else can you call it..? I rest my case.

Regarding the £10 minimum you have to deposit with Sipgate, yes that's
true but it lasts as long as you want to make it last, it doesn't run out
if you don't make the calls. I agree the 1000 minutes a month option is
not very good but like I said I don't make enough calls to warrant it.

Ivor

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:43:52 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:

>In other words, a rental in all but name. Fixed monthy charge, indeed.
>What else can you call it..?

well, let me think - monthly fee ? monthly service charge ?

all seem appropriate. As does rental "A similar payment made for the
use of a facility, equipment, or service provided by another."

Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !

Phil Thompson wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:43:52 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In other words, a rental in all but name. Fixed monthy charge,
>> indeed. What else can you call it..?
>
> well, let me think - monthly fee ? monthly service charge ?
>
> all seem appropriate. As does rental "A similar payment made for the
> use of a facility, equipment, or service provided by another."

Precisely. Dexter would have us believe that this payment is not a rental,
but if it *must* be paid regularly in order to use the service, regardless
of how many phone calls are made, then it's a rental in my book.

I have a mobile phone contract, I pay £X per month for XXX minutes, this
is payable whether I use it or not. I usually do, hence the reason I have
a contract and not PAYG, but whether there's a physical "line" or not,
it's still a rental and Orange are honest enough to call it that.

Ivor

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:03:41 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:

>it's still a rental and Orange are honest enough to call it that.

they call it a "Service plan" on my bill.

Phil
--
spamcop.net address commissioned 18/06/04
Come on down !

Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:43:52 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>> I agree the 1000 minutes a month option is
>> not very good but like I said I don't make enough calls to warrant
>> it.

> There is nothing at all wrong with the thousand minute option it is
> the fact that they make you pay ten pounds for it that is the
> problem when the charge is only 5.99 . If BT where to make you pay
> thirty pounds for their option 3 instead of the 28 pounds or
> something which it is there would be rioting in the streets and
> trading standards and offcom would be on their case in less than 24
> hours .

I've just been looking at the Sipgate 1000 page on the website -
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X54D2497B (I have used this link because
pasting the original seems to leave off the # symbol at the end for some
reason). I can't see anywhere there where it says you have to pay a
minimum of £10. Do you mean this -
https://secure.sipgate.co.uk/user/kontoaufladen.php - is this what you
mean by a minimum £10..? That is for the normal PAYG option, not for the
1000 minutes option.

From the Sipgate 1000 page:

Important:

The price from £ 5.90 starts with the activation of your credited account.
The amount is deducted automatically.

Note it does not say there that £10 is deducted. Have you actually signed
up for Sipgate 1000 and were you debited £10 or have you just read the
website incorrectly..?

Ivor

Ivor Jones wrote:
> Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:43:52 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
>> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I agree the 1000 minutes a month option is
>>> not very good but like I said I don't make enough calls to warrant
>>> it.
>
>> There is nothing at all wrong with the thousand minute option it is
>> the fact that they make you pay ten pounds for it that is the
>> problem when the charge is only 5.99 . If BT where to make you pay
>> thirty pounds for their option 3 instead of the 28 pounds or
>> something which it is there would be rioting in the streets and
>> trading standards and offcom would be on their case in less than 24
>> hours .
>
> I've just been looking at the Sipgate 1000 page on the website -
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?X54D2497B (I have used this link
> because pasting the original seems to leave off the # symbol at the
> end for some reason). I can't see anywhere there where it says you
> have to pay a minimum of £10. Do you mean this -
> https://secure.sipgate.co.uk/user/kontoaufladen.php - is this what
> you mean by a minimum £10..? That is for the normal PAYG option,
> not for the 1000 minutes option.
>
> From the Sipgate 1000 page:
>
> Important:
>
> The price from £ 5.90 starts with the activation of your credited
> account. The amount is deducted automatically.
>
> Note it does not say there that £10 is deducted. Have you actually
> signed up for Sipgate 1000 and were you debited £10 or have you
> just read the website incorrectly..?
>
> Ivor

Actually, looking at it again, I do see that the £5.90 is deducted from
your existing balance, so yes you would have to have put £10 on initially,
but you would have done that anyway if you wanted to make fixed line calls
on the PAYG system, so it isn't really the same. Once you have used the
1000 minutes the remainder of the calls come out of the rest of the
balance.

Is this what you mean..? I don't see a problem with that. If you want the
option of paying only £5.90 then you'd have to have some sort of direct
debit arrangement and I know you don't like that ;-)

Ivor

<Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:hhpvd1tg4310ugh8qh07hltip066ma6jj3@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:04:44 GMT, "r_mervart"
> <r_mervart@REMOVETHIShotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >OK, so I am clear on the first point now. The payment for service with
> >Sipgate, as you describe it, is rather strange. I presume you will not
have
> >to pay another tenner until you made calls worth £10 even if it takes
> >longer than a month?
>
> ( 1 ) You pay them 5.99 for a thousand minutes but you don't you have
> to pay them 10.00 leaving you 4.01 in credit .
> ( 2 ) At the end of the month if you have say 100 minutes left you
> loose them they don't roll over nothing wrong with that but for a
> second month they want a second 5.99 but you are only are only 4.01 in
> credit so to get a second 1000 minutes you have to pay a second 10.00
> which will leave you with 9.00 after they take the second 5.99 .
> ( 3 ) The third month comes round and has you are 9.00 in credit they
> take a 3 rd 5.99 leaving you £ 3.01 in credit so in the forth month
> they require another payment of 10.00 and so on and so forth.
> The fact that you loose what ever minutes you have left at the end of
> the month didn't bother me in the least it was a fixed payment pr
> month just like the Vonage payment , but no way was I paying 10.00
> when Sipgate's stated charge was 5.99 .

The charge is 5.99 / month, as they say, but they make you overpay so that
you are always in credit. The question I would ask is: What happens when you
want to terminate the service? Will they repay an overpaid amount so that
the final charge for N months is exactly N x 5.99 (on assumption of no
additional calls or charged services).
Roman

Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 22:25:42 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>> https://secure.sipgate.co.uk/user/kontoaufladen.php - is this what
>> you mean by a minimum £10..? That is for the normal PAYG option,
>> not for the 1000 minutes option.
>>
>> From the Sipgate 1000 page:
>>
>> Important:
>>
>> The price from £ 5.90 starts with the activation of your credited
>> account. The amount is deducted automatically.
>>
>> Note it does not say there that £10 is deducted. Have you actually
>> signed up for Sipgate 1000 and were you debited £10 or have you
>> just read the website incorrectly..?

> When you get to the payments page it says minimum of 10.00 .

In that case I apologise, I haven't tried it myself.

If you're making enough calls to justify it though it's still a good deal.
If you cancel it the remaining credit is still available for use.

Ivor

Dexter@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:43:52 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
> <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>> Regarding the £10 minimum you have to deposit with Sipgate, yes
>> that's true but it lasts as long as you want to make it last, it
>> doesn't run out if you don't make the calls. I agree the 1000
>> minutes a month option is not very good but like I said I don't
>> make enough calls to warrant it.
>
> But what happens if you run out of patience waiting for the Sipgate
> service to improve, a lifespan is only three score years and ten
> Ivor will they give you your money back if you leave before you
> use all the credit . Also don't forget one has no guarantee that
> Sipgate is going to stay the course they could cease to be
> operating next
> week then what happens to your money ?

One could say the same about any of them, with the possible exception of
BT. Look what happened to Mercury, here one day and gone the next.

Ivor