I posted here recently, hoping to solve my awful broadband continuity
problems. I typically find I can't connect to anything on the internet
via broadband dsl after around 8.30pm.
I called my ISP today and finally got somewhere, but not all the
way... The tekkie on the phone tested my line and came back saying
that the test results suggested a wiring fault within my house. He
asked me to unscrew the cover on the primary BT socket and plug my
microfilter into the hidden socket inside. I did that. He phone me
back and reported that he had tested the line again and now the
problems were gone. He concluded that the fault is in the wiring in
the BT socket's cover, and that the solution is to get the cover
changed.
However.... all is not solved! I left my microfilter plugged into the
hidden socket, but his evening, at the usual time (around 20:00 hrs, I
find I cannot connect to anything on the internet as usual! The only
difference is that now, my voip service remains fuctional, whereas
before, it used to be unable to connect whenever my PC was also unable
to connect to the net.
Does this shine any light on what teh problem may be?
Also, I should mention, even during the day when my broadband
connection is fine, I sometimes find the line goes silent, in the
middle of a voip conversation. Is that a common phenomenon with voip?
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
PS... Later the same night, (at 5.30am) I tried again to access the
net via braodband. This time, neither my PC nor my Vonage device can
connect. And when I tried to get access via dialup, I find that access
to web sites is extremely slow and I keep losing the connection.
(This is all with my adsl filter still plugged into the hidden socket
inside the cover of the BT master socket.)
Looks like the 'faulty master socket cover' diagnosis was not the
solution....
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:2hpme3l8c9u59kab81b518m8aa25bs4aec@4ax.com...
>
>
> PS... Later the same night, (at 5.30am) I tried again to access the
> net via braodband. This time, neither my PC nor my Vonage device can
> connect. And when I tried to get access via dialup, I find that access
> to web sites is extremely slow and I keep losing the connection.
>
> (This is all with my adsl filter still plugged into the hidden socket
> inside the cover of the BT master socket.)
>
> Looks like the 'faulty master socket cover' diagnosis was not the
> solution....
It's not so much to eliminate the faceplate itself,
it's more to do with eliminating any extension wiring connected
to it.
If you remember I started to take you down that route,
but there was no point in pursuing it once you had confirmed
there was no other wiring.
The trouble is that the helpdesk are ticking boxes on their script
rather than analyzing your individual situation.
You plugged the microfilter into the hidden socket,
but did you plug the router directly into the filter
eliminating the 20m extension lead?
Here is something to think about. The fact that the
problems are mainly in the evenings an at night may well
point to an increase in line noise during these times.
I might be worth thinking if the problem coincides with
anything electrical being switched on in the house,
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"Graham." <me@privacy.com> wrote in message
news:fcg6tl$pvh$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>
> "JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
> news:2hpme3l8c9u59kab81b518m8aa25bs4aec@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> PS... Later the same night, (at 5.30am) I tried again to access the
>> net via braodband. This time, neither my PC nor my Vonage device can
>> connect. And when I tried to get access via dialup, I find that access
>> to web sites is extremely slow and I keep losing the connection.
>>
>> (This is all with my adsl filter still plugged into the hidden socket
>> inside the cover of the BT master socket.)
>>
>> Looks like the 'faulty master socket cover' diagnosis was not the
>> solution....
>
>
> It's not so much to eliminate the faceplate itself,
>
> it's more to do with eliminating any extension wiring connected
>
> to it.
>
> If you remember I started to take you down that route,
>
> but there was no point in pursuing it once you had confirmed
>
> there was no other wiring.
>
> The trouble is that the helpdesk are ticking boxes on their script
>
> rather than analyzing your individual situation.
>
>
>
> You plugged the microfilter into the hidden socket,
>
> but did you plug the router directly into the filter
>
> eliminating the 20m extension lead?
>
>
>
> Here is something to think about. The fact that the
>
> problems are mainly in the evenings an at night may well
>
> point to an increase in line noise during these times.
>
> I might be worth thinking if the problem coincides with
>
> anything electrical being switched on in the house,
>
> eg. TV, fluorescent or CFL lighting etc.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Graham.
>
> %Profound_observation%
>
>
..... Equally, if it is not of the aforementioned nature, then it could be
due to timing, potentially an issue of congestion on your ISPs side.
Anyhow, what I really want to say is modular swap out fault testing.
I think you are getting to many things confused here. The previous poster
Graham appears to be clearly on the right track.
Still, it is a case of either learn the tech and modular swap out fault
testing yourself; get someone in; have someone (e.g. on here or a
knowledgeable tech friend by phone, etc.) hold you hand the whole way
through to thoroughly / completely test and evaluate everything and isolate
and determine the origin of the fault; or go the service provider routes
(your ISP and / or line provider, etc.) - which can be very tough, slow and
not necessarily get anyone (almost ever - although ultimately it should end
up fixed one day - with no guarantee of cost, etc.).
The preferred options would be one of either the first or third option
(unless the second is equally easy and free for you).
Anyhow, I am sure someone here will be able to help you work through it all.
Best wishes,
News Reader
P.s. It is just a bit of a shame that those who are supposed to be
knowledgeable so often aren't - i.e. service providers and tech support
people, etc. leading you and others up garden paths.
P.p.s. In short, you want to eliminate your equipment (ADSL equipment); your
PC; your internal phone wiring; your phone line; your ISP. Evidently, you
will not be able to eliminate all of them, the one you are left having
proven as the culprit is the problem! Hence you would for example, try your
equipment at a friends house with their ADSL connection; try your equipment
at your house as is, with a different PC; try with / without extension
cables; try different ADSL equipment (borrow a friends) at your house on
your line, etc., etc. Hope some of that helps at least vaguely. Sorry, I
deal quite often with this (as we all probably have to with quite a lot of
things), and sadly providers, etc. provide woefully to little education or
information about their products and services and how they work, etc. and
also often fail quite dismally to provide practical, useful, efficient or
effective support or assistance in the event of difficulties.
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:MHRGi.29611$ka7.20394@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Graham." <me@privacy.com> wrote in message
> news:fcg6tl$pvh$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
>> news:2hpme3l8c9u59kab81b518m8aa25bs4aec@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> PS... Later the same night, (at 5.30am) I tried again to access the
>>> net via braodband. This time, neither my PC nor my Vonage device can
>>> connect. And when I tried to get access via dialup, I find that access
>>> to web sites is extremely slow and I keep losing the connection.
>>>
>>> (This is all with my adsl filter still plugged into the hidden socket
>>> inside the cover of the BT master socket.)
>>>
>>> Looks like the 'faulty master socket cover' diagnosis was not the
>>> solution....
>>
>>
>> It's not so much to eliminate the faceplate itself,
>>
>> it's more to do with eliminating any extension wiring connected
>>
>> to it.
>>
>> If you remember I started to take you down that route,
>>
>> but there was no point in pursuing it once you had confirmed
>>
>> there was no other wiring.
>>
>> The trouble is that the helpdesk are ticking boxes on their script
>>
>> rather than analyzing your individual situation.
>>
>>
>>
>> You plugged the microfilter into the hidden socket,
>>
>> but did you plug the router directly into the filter
>>
>> eliminating the 20m extension lead?
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is something to think about. The fact that the
>>
>> problems are mainly in the evenings an at night may well
>>
>> point to an increase in line noise during these times.
>>
>> I might be worth thinking if the problem coincides with
>>
>> anything electrical being switched on in the house,
>>
>> eg. TV, fluorescent or CFL lighting etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Graham.
>>
>> %Profound_observation%
>>
>>
>
>
> .... Equally, if it is not of the aforementioned nature, then it could be
> due to timing, potentially an issue of congestion on your ISPs side.
>
> Anyhow, what I really want to say is modular swap out fault testing.
>
> I think you are getting to many things confused here. The previous poster
> Graham appears to be clearly on the right track.
>
> Still, it is a case of either learn the tech and modular swap out fault
> testing yourself; get someone in; have someone (e.g. on here or a
> knowledgeable tech friend by phone, etc.) hold you hand the whole way
> through to thoroughly / completely test and evaluate everything and
> isolate and determine the origin of the fault; or go the service provider
> routes (your ISP and / or line provider, etc.) - which can be very tough,
> slow and not necessarily get anyone (almost ever - although ultimately it
> should end up fixed one day - with no guarantee of cost, etc.).
>
> The preferred options would be one of either the first or third option
> (unless the second is equally easy and free for you).
>
> Anyhow, I am sure someone here will be able to help you work through it
> all.
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> News Reader
>
>
> P.s. It is just a bit of a shame that those who are supposed to be
> knowledgeable so often aren't - i.e. service providers and tech support
> people, etc. leading you and others up garden paths.
>
> P.p.s. In short, you want to eliminate your equipment (ADSL equipment);
> your PC; your internal phone wiring; your phone line; your ISP. Evidently,
> you will not be able to eliminate all of them, the one you are left having
> proven as the culprit is the problem! Hence you would for example, try
> your equipment at a friends house with their ADSL connection; try your
> equipment at your house as is, with a different PC; try with / without
> extension cables; try different ADSL equipment (borrow a friends) at your
> house on your line, etc., etc. Hope some of that helps at least vaguely.
> Sorry, I deal quite often with this (as we all probably have to with quite
> a lot of things), and sadly providers, etc. provide woefully to little
> education or information about their products and services and how they
> work, etc. and also often fail quite dismally to provide practical,
> useful, efficient or effective support or assistance in the event of
> difficulties.
>
>
>
P.s. By the way, it is pretty very unlikely that the ATA vs. usual internet
access use will be different in any way. I.e. if you are experiencing
connection problems with the ATA and with your PC (even if at different
times, etc.) then the problem is likely to be further up the chain and be
something universal to both - i.e. either your ADSL equipment or the line /
ISP, etc. In short, as it is unlikely to be something specific and different
in relation to your ATA vs. your usual PC internet browsing, don't let the
two separate uses of the same one internet connection confuse or distract
you.
P.p.s. Specifically, in your post above, you talk about the dial-up
connection failing. If you plug a phone into the filter (itself plugged into
the test socket of the master socket), is the line nice and clear, or can
you hear all manner of crackling, etc. (note, this may be worth checking
several times at different times of the day, etc.). Have you tried using a
different ADSL filter?
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:MHRGi.29611$ka7.20394@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Graham." <me@privacy.com> wrote in message
> news:fcg6tl$pvh$1@registered.motzarella.org...
>>
>> "JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
>> news:2hpme3l8c9u59kab81b518m8aa25bs4aec@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>> PS... Later the same night, (at 5.30am) I tried again to access the
>>> net via braodband. This time, neither my PC nor my Vonage device can
>>> connect. And when I tried to get access via dialup, I find that access
>>> to web sites is extremely slow and I keep losing the connection.
>>>
>>> (This is all with my adsl filter still plugged into the hidden socket
>>> inside the cover of the BT master socket.)
>>>
>>> Looks like the 'faulty master socket cover' diagnosis was not the
>>> solution....
>>
>>
>> It's not so much to eliminate the faceplate itself,
>>
>> it's more to do with eliminating any extension wiring connected
>>
>> to it.
>>
>> If you remember I started to take you down that route,
>>
>> but there was no point in pursuing it once you had confirmed
>>
>> there was no other wiring.
>>
>> The trouble is that the helpdesk are ticking boxes on their script
>>
>> rather than analyzing your individual situation.
>>
>>
>>
>> You plugged the microfilter into the hidden socket,
>>
>> but did you plug the router directly into the filter
>>
>> eliminating the 20m extension lead?
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is something to think about. The fact that the
>>
>> problems are mainly in the evenings an at night may well
>>
>> point to an increase in line noise during these times.
>>
>> I might be worth thinking if the problem coincides with
>>
>> anything electrical being switched on in the house,
>>
>> eg. TV, fluorescent or CFL lighting etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Graham.
>>
>> %Profound_observation%
>>
>>
>
>
> .... Equally, if it is not of the aforementioned nature, then it could be
> due to timing, potentially an issue of congestion on your ISPs side.
>
> Anyhow, what I really want to say is modular swap out fault testing.
>
> I think you are getting to many things confused here. The previous poster
> Graham appears to be clearly on the right track.
>
> Still, it is a case of either learn the tech and modular swap out fault
> testing yourself; get someone in; have someone (e.g. on here or a
> knowledgeable tech friend by phone, etc.) hold you hand the whole way
> through to thoroughly / completely test and evaluate everything and
> isolate and determine the origin of the fault; or go the service provider
> routes (your ISP and / or line provider, etc.) - which can be very tough,
> slow and not necessarily get anyone (almost ever - although ultimately it
> should end up fixed one day - with no guarantee of cost, etc.).
>
> The preferred options would be one of either the first or third option
> (unless the second is equally easy and free for you).
>
> Anyhow, I am sure someone here will be able to help you work through it
> all.
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> News Reader
>
>
> P.s. It is just a bit of a shame that those who are supposed to be
> knowledgeable so often aren't - i.e. service providers and tech support
> people, etc. leading you and others up garden paths.
>
> P.p.s. In short, you want to eliminate your equipment (ADSL equipment);
> your PC; your internal phone wiring; your phone line; your ISP. Evidently,
> you will not be able to eliminate all of them, the one you are left having
> proven as the culprit is the problem! Hence you would for example, try
> your equipment at a friends house with their ADSL connection; try your
> equipment at your house as is, with a different PC; try with / without
> extension cables; try different ADSL equipment (borrow a friends) at your
> house on your line, etc., etc. Hope some of that helps at least vaguely.
> Sorry, I deal quite often with this (as we all probably have to with quite
> a lot of things), and sadly providers, etc. provide woefully to little
> education or information about their products and services and how they
> work, etc. and also often fail quite dismally to provide practical,
> useful, efficient or effective support or assistance in the event of
> difficulties.
>
>
>
Hi,
Some further bits for you.
Focusing on your original post:
- your VOIP continuing to work when the PC does not is pretty unusual, and
basically cannot be very obviously explained. It is probably just anomalous.
I.e. from what I can tell you have a line fault. If your VOIP happens to
work or keep working when the PC does not it is probably just pure chance or
luck. I expect if you properly tested the VOIP when the PC is not working
you would find it in fact is not working. I.e. a "connected light" on the
VOIP ATA does not necessarily mean it is working. It may only check its
connection every 10 minutes or so; so it may hit a lucky or fluky connection
and not realised that almost immediately after that it was in fact
disconnected and would not reveal this for the next ten minutes; equally it
may be that it is just managing to register "connection" status but could
not actually support voice traffic over the connection; equally if you kept
trying with the PC when the ATA "appears" to be working, you will probably
find that you will just about mange to get half a page to load. I don't know
how you are evaluating that the VOIP is continuing to work. If you test it
by actually placing a reasonable length test call and evaluating the audio
in both directions, then you would most probably find that it is either
essentially not working at all or barely working (if the PC is not working
at the same time). Or equally, if the VOIP is just about holding together
(some audio cutting out, etc.), then you should find perseverance with the
PC will yield that just about working (i.e. pages timing out, nearly half
loading, etc.). In short, whatever is happening with the VOIP should be the
same fate suffered by the PC - it is probably just sending you red herrings!
- VOIP should not cut out at all - full stop. VOIP should support perfect
continuous audio and service the same as the best landline you have ever
used. Their are some caveats, but all other things being equal the
aforementioned holds true. (If for example you are downloading a lot of
large files at the same time as trying to use your VOIP connection the audio
may suffer as it is having to fight to fit down the connection along with
the download and their is not enough room for both). Equally, if you have a
bad connection that will cause VOIP to drop out the same as it causes file
transfers on your / a PC to slow down or drop out.
- your dial-up experience - if your dial-up is very slow, that is probably
to be expected - dial-up is very slow (lol - sorry!). If you are comparing
it accurately to normal dial-up performance experienced in similar
conditions and it is a lot slower then I would suggest the line may be bad
(again try the listening test - previous post[s]). It would be useful it you
could give us some figures or statistics - e.g. connection speed. However,
if your dial-up connection is dropping out this again suggests a line
problem. It is worth making sure by double checking any wiring and filters
again.
- REAL DEAL - getting to the meat of the subject - if your ISP has performed
a line test, and has found a wiring fault - this really should be like a red
rag hanging in front of the face of a bull - i.e. SOMETHING IS CLEARLY
WRONG! ... lol...in your case, the fact that what you usually get is
intermittent problems, it is not really any surprise that the fault suddenly
"appeared" to clear up and then actually return a few hours later. Equally,
intermittent faults will generously spew red herrings, etc. all over the
place and cause odd phenomenon's such as ATA working for a minute whilst the
PC appears not to and vice versa. The reality is, ISP performed test and got
wiring fault reported; if you have changed nothing and are still directly
connected to the master socket test socket (without using any extension
cables and you have tested using either different ADSL equipment and tested
using a different ADSL cable from your existing ADSL modem / router to said
master socket); then their is a wiring fault - but not in your house or
anything on your side - it is anywhere from where BT take responsibility for
the line (back of the master socket) to the exchange. But in short, it
sounds like it is unequivocally a line fault!
Examples could be a road work crew have half severed a cable so it is
intermittently connecting; water is getting into a cable and making it
intermittently misbehave, etc.
Thank you so much for your generous effort in helping me out. (Thanks,
likewise to Graham.) Firstly, I have to make a couple of embarrassing
confessions. (1) Contrary to what I said in my last post,it turns out
that when the fault returned last night, it was with the cover screwed
back in place on the BT master socket. (I had screwed teh cover back
on, unconsciously,apparently! These things happen when you get past 50
and are very tired, late at night... The fact is, I have never
experienced a problem when the microfilter is plugged into the hidden
socket beneath the cover, although I haven't tried it for long
periods. .Perhaps the ISP's tekkie tester was right in his diagnosis:
that the face plate is theh cause of the problem. I noticed that there
is a blue wire inside the face plate that goes nowhee, as if it has
been cut. I was wondering of it was supposed to be one of the wires
connecting the face plate to the main body of the socket.
My second confession is that I have now discovered that ther *IS* an
extension cable hard-wired into the BT master socket... It goes to a
loud, mains-powered (?) telephone bell only.
I have ordered a brand new BT master socket on eBay, which I will use
to replace the old one, and hope that this cures the problem. With a
bit of luck the face plate will fit the old socket. If so, I will
simply change the face plate.
Should I disconnect the hard-wired extension cable going to the loud
bell? Someone (Graham, perhaps) seemed to imply that having anything
hard-wired into the socket might be a cause of problems...
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:40:05 +0100, Jono <nothanks@blueyonder.invalid>
wrote:
>
>Hmm. One like this <http://www.clarity.it/telecoms/adsl_faceplate.htm>
>would allow you to keep your bell.
Really? Well that sounds attractive, then. Thanks for the lead. Kind
of pricey, but if it's gonna work, it'll be worth it. Would the eay to
wire it in be self-evident? I.e., would the coloured wired go to
exacly the same places as per teh old face-plate?
>
>I believe that once you disconnect the bell, you won't need a new "BT
>Master"
So, if I use on of these filtered faceplates, should I still
disconnect thehard-wired bell or not?
Thanks for clarifying, and thanks for the input....
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:54:04 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
wrote:
PS.. It's a bit strange that the bad connection always seems to start
around 7.00pm or 8.00pm though.... From 7.00am to 7.00pm, it has
generally been mostly OK.
BTW, I'm hoping I can keep the loud mains (?) powered bell, because my
elderly landlady really needs it to hear when the phone is ringing...
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:il7oe3pgq3crk6vderqt103k0kdgp3tf93@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:54:04 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
> wrote:
>
> PS.. It's a bit strange that the bad connection always seems to start
> around 7.00pm or 8.00pm though.... From 7.00am to 7.00pm, it has
> generally been mostly OK.
>
> BTW, I'm hoping I can keep the loud mains (?) powered bell, because my
> elderly landlady really needs it to hear when the phone is ringing...
>
> Jake D
Hi,
I would just sound a little note or two of caution.
Whilst by and large this should all be fine, present and correct, etc. -
their is a possibility that if your extension bell is particularly odd, old,
curious, inept, ill, etc. it could still cause a problem or problems with
your ADSL, etc. even if you use a fancy filtered face plate.
I don't think you need a filtered face plate, it may help but may make no
difference.
In short, my thinking goes:
- if it is something to do with your master socket, it is most probably
that it has dodgy extension wiring (includes additional device connections
such as, in your case, the extension bells wiring) or a dodgy connected
extension device (your bell itself). The master socket itself is probably
fine.
- if it is not your bell, it's extension wiring or the wiring of the
extension within the master socket - then it may well indeed be the line
itself (back from the back of the master socket off to the exchange). This
sounds increasingly likely or possible because as you point out, you have a
time related symptom - particularly one which is evening and night time
related (which, if I recall correctly, is when noise on lines increases).
This is unlikely to be related to your bell, et. al. or not so obviously.
Hence, I would do some of the hallowed modular swap out testing.
1) - Eliminate all internal issues. Remove the user removable front plate of
the current master socket. (Assuming no-one has done any super creative
bodgery and their is nothing else wired in to the master socket / the back
of the master socket; the wiring into the master socket is good; and that
the master socket itself is good)... plug your [ known good ;) ] ADSL filter
into the test socket of the master socket. Conduct extensive testing - good
hours and bad hours (i.e. night and day) and for extended periods. (Again
make sure you are testing with known good equipment - i.e. that your ADSL
kit AND its cables [the cable from the ADSL modem to the ADSL filter] are
known good - i.e. tested and proven fine at a similar installation somewhere
else). If everything works fine, your problem is with the bell or its wiring
into the master socket extension connector. If you still have problems, the
line is almost definitely dodgy (vis-a-vis my previous remarks concerning
intermittent line faults - workmen in road, water ingress, etc., etc.) - and
it is BT's side of the line and their responsibility. Sadly, that doesn't
necessarily mean it is easy thence to get corrected - but you would at least
hopefully be starting down the right road. And you can be sure where the
fault is, and assuming someone knowledgeable on the phone, explain how you
know and what modular swap out fault testing you have done to confirm and
isolate the fault origin ;) , etc.
If we have now identified that everything is fine here (upto step 1 thus
far - i.e. not a "line" fault) then --->
2) - Eliminate bell and its wiring. What we are doing now is having
concluded that the line is ok; we proceed to isolate the bell and its wiring
to determine if that or potentially the master socket itself are faulty. So
now we are going to evaluate and attempt to exclude the bell as the cause of
the fault. (These bells as I say can be mighty odd - especially if old,
mains powered, etc. - it could introduce all sorts of stray or odd signals -
and it may be that this is more pivotal at the higher noise night time -
although the likelihood of that is probably somewhat marginal). I.e. unplug
it at the master socket (i.e. disconnect any and every extension connection
from behind the user removable part of the master socket front). Plug the
(now extensions stripped off / out) master socket front panel back in the
master socket. Perform the same testing as in stage 1 above by plugging
ONLY, your ADSL filter into the front of the master socket and then into the
ADSL filter ONLY your ADSL modem (again... and then perform the above
extensive testing). If everything broadband side works, the fault is the
bell, the bells wiring or the way the bells wiring was connected to the
master socket. If still not working, the master socket front panel is
buggered (in which case - your new ebay one should fix everything! - unless
you are very unlucky and happen to get a bad one! - lol - only joking).
If everything identified fine here --->
3) - As by reaching step 3 here, we would have identified the bell, its
wiring or how it was connected to the master socket as the problem - we can
now isolate which of these last three component parameters could be the
problem. First exclude "how the bell is wired into the master socket"...
wire it back in VERY WELL and 100% correctly (lol - read the user manual for
the bell - more lol's! - or check some online wiring sockets type guides or
websites / pages, etc.). Fixed problem? It was badly wired in in the first
place. All solved. Still not working? Your choice - depending on how the
bell is wired and made (at the bell's end of its phone extension cable!)..
either unplug the bell from the bell end of its extension cable... problem
solved? = Bell is bad. Problem not solved = bell's wiring is bad (replace
bells extension wiring with a new bit of extension wiring). You may find if
the bells extension wiring is bad, that the problem replicates even with new
bell extension wiring - as the bell may also be incompatible / introducing
to much noise anyhow (i.e. is additionally faulty to the bells extension
cable). If you cannot remove the phone extension wiring from the bell end,
you may try a few other things; try unplugging the power supply for the bell
(you say it is mains powered). If that fixes it = bell is the problem; not
fixed = may be the bells phone extension wiring or may still be the bell.
Gets a bit harder to produce certainty for you here without a soldering
iron, etc. But I would at this stage, if you still have the problem and
haven't been able to further isolate the problem, suggest that buying a more
modern / new replacement bell WITH wiring should sort it out.
Hope some of this helps.
As the other poster suggests, you may find that a special filtered ADSL
master socket will work with your bell, but it sounds a little like
clutching at straws, and I would want to know what was the problem cause
before going down that road - especially as it doesn't appear to guarantee
to fix it. Further, as you say, it is not cheap, and I would not like for
you to have forked out for it and fitted it to find your problem persists
(e.g. if the bell is really "dirty" it may pump untold crap down its
extension wiring sufficient to overpower any adsl master socket). Equally,
the above evaluations may help you better identify the culprit with
certainty which may save you needing to address this side of things anyhow.
Finally, it is pretty unusual by my understanding, for a master socket to
"go bad". They are usually pretty dependable, reliable and don't have a lot
to go wrong in / with them - and even if something has gone wrong it would
seem unusual or unlikely for it to exhibit by causing this kind of problem
(instead you might get loss of ring tone, etc.). Generally the master socket
is BT's responsibility. In short, if the fault is from the test socket back,
it is BT's problem (essentially no matter what - but in reality so long as
it is not caused by something "you" have done; a common example of a normal
fault cause not due to the customer would be damage due to lightning). If
the fault is with the front part of the master socket; it is probably really
BT's issue, but they may or probably will claim it is your fault and
something you have done to it and so want to charge you for its replacement
or repair. To be fair, unless you have obviously staved it in or plugged
something really weird into it or the extension socket and melted it, I
expect BT would replace it as faulty due to no fault of your own, etc. I
think it is most likely an intermittent line fault; followed by something to
do with the bell being bad or dodgy.
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"Jono" <nothanks@blueyonder.invalid> wrote in message
news:mn.7c847d79d39643db.48968@blueyonder.invalid. ..
> JakeD expressed precisely :
>> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:54:04 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> PS.. It's a bit strange that the bad connection always seems to start
>> around 7.00pm or 8.00pm though.... From 7.00am to 7.00pm, it has
>> generally been mostly OK.
>
> Not really. Line "noise" generally increases in the evening
>
>
>> BTW, I'm hoping I can keep the loud mains (?) powered bell, because my
>> elderly landlady really needs it to hear when the phone is ringing...
>
> You must filter it. So, unless you can plug it into the "phone" side of a
> filter, in order to keep it, you will need to either cobble together a
> lead that allows you to plug it in to the filter or put a filtered
> faceplate in.
>
>
Hi,
Good point ;) - lol... Sounds like that is almost definitely the short
version answer of my reply post ;) .
Belt and braces in my version if you want to be / make sure, etc.
>Equally,
>the above evaluations may help you better identify the culprit
Yes, I certainly think so. I will print out your comments and use them
to systematically find the problem by process of elimination. Thanks
also to Jono for his help. You both have been more helpful than I
could ever have hoped for. I mean, I have posted awkward problems on
the usenet before but have never had such a concerted effort at
helpfulness before, so I'm truely grateful.
>Finally, it is pretty unusual by my understanding, for a master socket to
>"go bad". They are usually pretty dependable, reliable and don't have a lot
>to go wrong in / with them - and even if something has gone wrong it would
>seem unusual or unlikely for it to exhibit by causing this kind of problem
>(instead you might get loss of ring tone, etc.). Generally the master socket
>is BT's responsibility. In short, if the fault is from the test socket back,
>it is BT's problem (essentially no matter what - but in reality so long as
>it is not caused by something "you" have done; a common example of a normal
>fault cause not due to the customer would be damage due to lightning). If
>the fault is with the front part of the master socket; it is probably really
>BT's issue, but they may or probably will claim it is your fault and
>something you have done to it and so want to charge you for its replacement
>or repair. To be fair, unless you have obviously staved it in or plugged
>something really weird into it or the extension socket and melted it, I
>expect BT would replace it as faulty due to no fault of your own, etc. I
>think it is most likely an intermittent line fault; followed by something to
>do with the bell being bad or dodgy.
That's what I thought (that the master socket and everything else
going back to the exchange was BT's responsibility. Unfortunately,
this supposition was blown out of the water when I called BT a couple
of days ago. They said that any faults must be taken up with TalkTalk,
as they are the company now supplying the service via theBT line. I
phoned TalkTalk to report the "faulty face plate" and they informed me
that the master socket was my responsibility since it was inside my
house! They said that they only accept responsibility for the wiring
*outside* the house. I did try to take issue of the fairness of this,
but the gal was adamant. She advised me to pay a local independent
telephone engineer to come and change the master socket. I respended
with: "well, I can wire in a new master socket myself. I've done that
kind of thing before." Her response: "I wouldn't advise that; it's
dangerous. I recommend you get a bloke out of the yellow pages." My
contemplated response: "Dangerous? Yeah, I suppose I could, in theory,
trip over a discraded banana skin and kill myself by knocking my head
on the corner of the master socket...." My actual response: Should the
bloke out of the yellow pages have any particular qualifications or
certification?" Her response: "No". My response: "Well, I may as well
do the job myself then. I don't have any qualification or
certification either, and I have done it before, successfully." Her
response: "Well, if you're confident, then go ahead..." My
contemplated response: "Well I might be confident I could live if I
jumped off the Empire State Building... It doen't mean I will..." (-;
Anyway, after reading your comments, it seems like the master socket
*may* not be the problem and the mains-powered bell *might* be the
problem. I will probably wire in the new faceplate acquired from ebay
and see if that cures the problem. If not, I will disconnect the
mains-powered bell and see if that cures the problem - and take it
from there.
Thanks a million for the substantial help. It's not every day one
receives focused help like that when in trouble. I will post a
progress report...
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:54:22 +0100, Jono <nothanks@blueyonder.invalid>
wrote:
>If you use a filtered faceplate, your hardwired extensions/bells can
>stay in place as they would be hardwired to the filtered side of the
>faceplate - your adsl modem/router would then plug in to the unfiltered
>rj11 socket
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:dvnoe3lf6471k5b84b3huujc0ulb3nk3vc@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 19:13:45 GMT, "News Reader" <no@email.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>>Equally,
>>the above evaluations may help you better identify the culprit
>
> Yes, I certainly think so. I will print out your comments and use them
> to systematically find the problem by process of elimination. Thanks
> also to Jono for his help. You both have been more helpful than I
> could ever have hoped for. I mean, I have posted awkward problems on
> the usenet before but have never had such a concerted effort at
> helpfulness before, so I'm truely grateful.
>
>>Finally, it is pretty unusual by my understanding, for a master socket to
>>"go bad". They are usually pretty dependable, reliable and don't have a
>>lot
>>to go wrong in / with them - and even if something has gone wrong it would
>>seem unusual or unlikely for it to exhibit by causing this kind of problem
>>(instead you might get loss of ring tone, etc.). Generally the master
>>socket
>>is BT's responsibility. In short, if the fault is from the test socket
>>back,
>>it is BT's problem (essentially no matter what - but in reality so long as
>>it is not caused by something "you" have done; a common example of a
>>normal
>>fault cause not due to the customer would be damage due to lightning). If
>>the fault is with the front part of the master socket; it is probably
>>really
>>BT's issue, but they may or probably will claim it is your fault and
>>something you have done to it and so want to charge you for its
>>replacement
>>or repair. To be fair, unless you have obviously staved it in or plugged
>>something really weird into it or the extension socket and melted it, I
>>expect BT would replace it as faulty due to no fault of your own, etc. I
>>think it is most likely an intermittent line fault; followed by something
>>to
>>do with the bell being bad or dodgy.
>
> That's what I thought (that the master socket and everything else
> going back to the exchange was BT's responsibility. Unfortunately,
> this supposition was blown out of the water when I called BT a couple
> of days ago. They said that any faults must be taken up with TalkTalk,
> as they are the company now supplying the service via theBT line. I
> phoned TalkTalk to report the "faulty face plate" and they informed me
> that the master socket was my responsibility since it was inside my
> house! They said that they only accept responsibility for the wiring
> *outside* the house. I did try to take issue of the fairness of this,
> but the gal was adamant. She advised me to pay a local independent
> telephone engineer to come and change the master socket. I respended
> with: "well, I can wire in a new master socket myself. I've done that
> kind of thing before." Her response: "I wouldn't advise that; it's
> dangerous. I recommend you get a bloke out of the yellow pages." My
> contemplated response: "Dangerous? Yeah, I suppose I could, in theory,
> trip over a discraded banana skin and kill myself by knocking my head
> on the corner of the master socket...." My actual response: Should the
> bloke out of the yellow pages have any particular qualifications or
> certification?" Her response: "No". My response: "Well, I may as well
> do the job myself then. I don't have any qualification or
> certification either, and I have done it before, successfully." Her
> response: "Well, if you're confident, then go ahead..." My
> contemplated response: "Well I might be confident I could live if I
> jumped off the Empire State Building... It doen't mean I will..." (-;
>
> Anyway, after reading your comments, it seems like the master socket
> *may* not be the problem and the mains-powered bell *might* be the
> problem. I will probably wire in the new faceplate acquired from ebay
> and see if that cures the problem. If not, I will disconnect the
> mains-powered bell and see if that cures the problem - and take it
> from there.
>
> Thanks a million for the substantial help. It's not every day one
> receives focused help like that when in trouble. I will post a
> progress report...
>
> Jake D
>
Hi Jake,
Thanks - and you are most welcome.
As for BT and Talk Talk... they are just not really teaching their people
what to say and failing to teach them to say things that are actually
particularly or very useful or helpful! lol...
BT could do with kindly explaining the reality... e.g. (an example of what
their kind of script could / perhaps should be) "your supplier is Talk Talk"
(then... assuming you are LLU or wholesale line rental with Talk Talk...)",
that means when you have a problem you have to tell them about it and then
they will get our division called Open Reach to check and repair any fault".
Talk Talk could similarly do with some improvement - evidently actually the
boundary is drawn at the master socket and I am pretty certain Open Reach
would do a fair bit of screaming and shouting if they knew or suspected some
service providers were telling customers otherwise - and encouraging anyone
but them (Open Reach) to fiddle with, adjust or repair, etc. master socket
side and beyond (off to the exchange), equipment / line, etc. Sadly, as with
many of these organisations, and as above, often the front line staff are
not very well trained, etc. and often worse, are left to or encouraged to,
come up with their own idea, thought or suggestion of a best answer!
In the latter sort of situations, one often has to do a certain amount of
compensatory or corrective creative jiggery pokery (in one's presentation of
a situation or problem) - e.g. in your case for example, saying "the 'line'
just as it goes into the house looks knackered / damaged", to overcome the
nonesense BS about the master socket being your (the customers)
responsibility! Then when the Open Reach guy comes round, you just explain
that Talk Talk told you the master socket was the customers responsibility,
etc. and they will probably sigh and go oh well, thank god you managed to
get us (Open Reach) out as that is the right thing to do and we are the
people that are supposed to deal with the master socket and line side of
things! lol. But... this is only sound reasoning or a sound approach to take
if you are sure (or VERY sure / sure enough [again read certain or VERY
sure]) that the master socket is actually bad or you can end up with a big
unnecessary call out bill from your provider Talk Talk / and / or Open Reach
(i.e. that one is sure any fault is definitely on the Open Reach side not
the consumer premises / consumer premises equipment side of things), etc.
In any event, all good, etc. :)
Keep us posted. Thanks for your kind words and I hope some of the
suggestions are helpful, etc.
>Then when the Open Reach guy comes round, you just explain
>that Talk Talk told you the master socket was the customers responsibility,
>etc. and they will probably sigh and go oh well, thank god you managed to
>get us (Open Reach) out as that is the right thing to do and we are the
>people that are supposed to deal with the master socket and line side of
>things! lol. But... this is only sound reasoning or a sound approach to take
>if you are sure (or VERY sure / sure enough [again read certain or VERY
>sure]) that the master socket is actually bad or you can end up with a big
>unnecessary call out bill from your provider Talk Talk / and / or Open Reach
>(i.e. that one is sure any fault is definitely on the Open Reach side not
>the consumer premises / consumer premises equipment side of things), etc.
Thanks very much for putting me in the picture about Open Reach etc.
After reading your comments, I think I had better not involve Open
Reach at this stage, because of the loud bell that has been hard-wired
into the main body of the master socket. I have no idea who did that
job; it may well not have been done by a previous resident, and if so,
I could be accused of buggering up their socket and receive a huge
bill for call-out +repairs. I would think it makes sense for me to
just quietly change the cover plate and then, if necessary, quietly
remove the loud bell, (leaving no trace, where it was wired into the
socket) and take it from there. Does that make sense?
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 11:25:48 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
wrote:
>I would think it makes sense for me to
>just quietly change the cover plate and then, if necessary, quietly
>remove the loud bell, (leaving no trace, where it was wired into the
>socket) and take it from there. Does that make sense?
PS. Today, during one of the breaks in my bradband connection, I
disconnected the loud bell from the BT master socket. This made no
difference; I still could not conect to the net.
When the new master socket arrives, I'll try replacing the face plate.
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:10:40 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
wrote:
>PS. Today, during one of the breaks in my bradband connection, I
>disconnected the loud bell from the BT master socket. This made no
>difference; I still could not conect to the net.
>
>When the new master socket arrives, I'll try replacing the face plate.
PPS
During a period of OK-connection, with my adsl filter plugged into the
hidden socket behind the master socket's face plate, I did a speed
test today, at:
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:cb0qe3pdikba8n20ifq7bsp48c3jrg6hpd@4ax.com...
>
> Thanks very much for putting me in the picture about Open Reach etc.
> After reading your comments, I think I had better not involve Open
> Reach at this stage, because of the loud bell that has been hard-wired
> into the main body of the master socket. I have no idea who did that
> job; it may well not have been done by a previous resident, and if so,
> I could be accused of buggering up their socket and receive a huge
> bill for call-out +repairs. I would think it makes sense for me to
> just quietly change the cover plate and then, if necessary, quietly
> remove the loud bell, (leaving no trace, where it was wired into the
> socket) and take it from there. Does that make sense?
If, as it appears you are saying above, the bell has been hardwired to the A
and B terminals of the incoming line (ie directly to the rear of the part of
the installation which contains the test socket, and not to the removable
faceplate), then IMO this would not be desirable anyway as it is therefore
bypassing any attempts at filtering even if you use a filtered faceplate.
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:51:30 +0100, "Rob" <nobody@this.place.invalid>
wrote:
>
>If, as it appears you are saying above, the bell has been hardwired to the A
>and B terminals of the incoming line (ie directly to the rear of the part of
>the installation which contains the test socket, and not to the removable
>faceplate), then IMO this would not be desirable anyway as it is therefore
>bypassing any attempts at filtering even if you use a filtered faceplate.
>
>Rob
Hi Rob,
Thanks... My mistake; the bell was actually wired to the face-plate. I
have now removed it but it didn't cure the problem.
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
news:gvmqe3hj5sph6jlt3n8pc6gpl23nk4t1ru@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:10:40 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
> wrote:
>
>>PS. Today, during one of the breaks in my bradband connection, I
>>disconnected the loud bell from the BT master socket. This made no
>>difference; I still could not conect to the net.
>>
>>When the new master socket arrives, I'll try replacing the face plate.
>
> PPS
> During a period of OK-connection, with my adsl filter plugged into the
> hidden socket behind the master socket's face plate, I did a speed
> test today, at:
>
> http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/
>
> The results were:
> 971 kbps download speed
> 243 kbps upload speed
>
> Does this indicate anything?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jake D
>
Hi Jake,
I have been mulling on this.
I think we are pretty much at where we had got to with all this. Shortly,
you should be able to eliminate all possibilities on your side (assuming -
lol - you have done the full monty of my suggestions to the letter - i.e.
verifying your ADSL kit and its cables and filters and and, etc. , your
computer, etc. - where verifying means checking your kit somewhere else to
see that a known good connection at another place continues to work with
your kit; and equally using someone else's known good kit at your place to
see if their kit also fails with your connection / line, etc.)... (p.s. some
of that may be a bit of the top - but not really / not in reality!)..
(particularly after you have replaced the master socket) at which juncture
this ball is more firmly in either your ISPs court (something wrong on their
side - e.g. / i.e. their line card if you're LLU with Talk Talk, or their
modem bank, or some other such on their side) or BT Open Reach's court
(something wrong with the line, etc.).
Hope this helps.
Otherwise - your connection speeds / throughput seem nice. I think the real
question though is "packet loss"... i.e. when your connection is working are
you suffering a lot of frequent noise / errors on the line - i.e. data
having to be resent because it got lost / corrupted due to noise / a bad
connection, etc. Their are various ways you can test this... the easiest
would be either one of the online programs or free programs, else you can do
it with Windows itself - just not quite so exciting, fun or user friendly.
Go to "Start" button -> choose Run -> type "command" -> in the black text
window that comes up type "ping -t www.bbc.co.uk" . This will keep testing
the connection to, in this case www.bbc.co.uk, until you tell it to stop.
You can press CTRL + BREAK (on the "Pause" key - usually top right of the
keyboard, near Scroll Lock and Print Screen) - this will give you a live
update on the statistics without interrupting the test. Or when you want to
stop the test press CTRL + C . This will stop the test and give the final
results.
What you are interested in is the "Lost" count.. should really be 0% or
maybe very very low i.e. 1% or less. Equally, you can look at the pattern of
speeds for each data packets as it when to the bbc .... watch as it scrolls
past and look at the time = bit... in ms... It should be fairly steady or
constant. If it is fluctuating a lot (>10/20%) and regularly... this may be
another issue...
Let us know what you discover and how you get on, etc. !
Best wishes,
News Reader
P.s. The packet loss tests, etc. are a bit superfluous really because you
are suffering a serious connection problem - i.e. complete loss of sync /
disconnection. Hence, their is a more major or real and serious problem
either with your hardware, their hardware or the configuration, etc. (Hence
why your genuine and full complete fault testing of your own hardware, etc.
is probably so necessary / more important).
P.p.s. You can test your connection to any address - doesn't have to be the
bbc - just enter the address you want to test. E.g. www.yahoo.com ; www.nasa.gov ; www.sega.co.jp ; www.bmw.de ; etc. Also normally ping testing
is done with out the " -t " bit which just tells the computer to keep
checking until you tell it to stop. The standard version of a ping test is
to test 3 or 4 times and give you the average results - feel free to try it
(i.e. without the " -t " bit) - it is just in this case we are acutely
trying to test packet loss (and a known or specific problem scenario) rather
than latency (how long it takes a data packet to get to a destination) (or
just a general test / general interest test of an otherwise expected or
known to be working normally connection) so lots of tests rather than just 3
or 4 is more useful / necessary, etc. And whilst we are at it, the other one
you might like is tracert. Same as above... but instead of typing ping type
"tracert www.bbc.co.uk" ... you don't need any other bits (like -t, etc.).
This will test the whole route, every step, and three times for each step,
anything not working or a lost packet will come up as a * . Again, you
should not have packet loss ( * 's ) and times should be fairly consistent,
no big differences on the same line (or THAT big between lines - depends,
e.g. if tracing the route to NASA in America one of the lines will be a leap
across the Atlantic ocean so you expect a good 20 / 30 ms leap between lines
their!). Equally, some hosts (bbc, yahoo, etc.) do not allow ping tests
(which is all traceroute is a fancy version of really), and so will only
show *'s or 100% packet loss (i.e. they are probably firewalled and refusing
to acknowledge your or reply). Likewise with traceroute, you may find some
hops on the list refuse to reply so for that line you may get all *'s ... or
if your final destination is firewalled / not replying.. you will get all
*'s... and it will keep on trying so press CTRL+C to stop it if you are sure
it has reached the end host and the end host is not replying., etc. You will
get the hang of it / the idea. Finally, for courtesy's sake, some people see
excess pinging as a bit like spam, or attacking. The odd handful of a few
pings is fine, and people like the bbc don't mind at all - it is all part of
useful network testing and diagnostics, but for the record / completeness
whatever I am just letting you know that some people don't like it -
basically it is fine and a normal, sensible and necessary part of the
internet, but don't go to crazy pinging the living xyz out of your neighbour
for example ;) or the military (not that I suppose they will really mind /
care - but still). :)
Re: The continuing mystery of my shakey connection...
"News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message
news:Y2cIi.32172$ka7.23251@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "JakeD" <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com> wrote in message
> news:gvmqe3hj5sph6jlt3n8pc6gpl23nk4t1ru@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 17:10:40 +0100, JakeD <JakeD@jdjdjvvdjdjdj.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>PS. Today, during one of the breaks in my bradband connection, I
>>>disconnected the loud bell from the BT master socket. This made no
>>>difference; I still could not conect to the net.
>>>
>>>When the new master socket arrives, I'll try replacing the face plate.
< SNIP > useful network testing and diagnostics, but for the record /
completeness
> whatever I am just letting you know that some people don't like it -
> basically it is fine and a normal, sensible and necessary part of the
> internet, but don't go to crazy pinging the living xyz out of your
> neighbour for example ;) or the military (not that I suppose they will
> really mind / care - but still). :)
>
>
>
>
By the way...
For completeness...
The black text window is called a command prompt. I told you to open it
using "command", that was because I don't know what version of Windows you
are using, and that should work with most versions, however you can use
"cmd" if you have a newer version of windows and it should be a slightly
more feature rich version (not that you will be able to tell very easily
:) ).
Further, the correct way to end a command prompt session is to type "exit"
at the... lol - funnily enough... command prompt, and the session / window
will close. :) .. Failing that just hit the "X" in the top right - lol.
Usually a good idea to and standard practise to bang CTRL+C or CTRL+BREAK a
few times if you get stuck with something in a command prompt window (it
means cancel or abort) and short return you to the command prompt where you
can try something else or type "exit" to finish.
All the bits in "quotes" are to be typed exactly as they appear within the
quotes but without typing the quotes ;) .
The continuing mystery of my shakey connection... 
Linear Mode
