e164.org and 0800 numbers.

Yesterday, I faile d(once again) to add enum records for our 0800 number
(BT-owned number) This didn't surprise me, so I ignored it.

While I was on the site I noticed the vast number of allocations that
they claim, so I thought I'd test this against our customer database.
(some 4000 numbers).

The results were somewhat surprising.

There were no records for any geographic number (that bit wasn't
surprising).

All the 0800 numbers have records, as to the 1800 numbers.

On closer inspection, all the 0800 numbers have the same records (as
each other) as do the 1800 numbers).

<customer #>.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 100 10 "u" "E2U+SIP"
"!^\\+44800(.*)$!sip:44800\\1@public.sip.magrathea .net!" .
<customer #>.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 100 10 "u" "E2U+SIP"
"!^\\+44800(.*)$!sip:44800\\1@freenum.sip.telecomp lete.net!" .
<customer #>.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 200 10 "u" "E2U+SIP"
"!^\\+44800(.*)$!sip:44800\\1@selfnet.at!" .

for 0800 numbers and

<customer #>.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 200 10 "u" "E2U+SIP"
"!^\\+1800(.*)$!sip:1641641800\\1@sip.tollfreegate way.com!" .
<customer #>.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 200 10 "u" "E2U+SIP"
"!^\\+1800(.*)$!sip:1800\\1@tf.voipmich.com!" .

for 1800 numbers.

Our own (BT owned) number has the same 3 listings.

If magrathea et al make money from terminations through them to 0800
numbers, then this looks to me like a bit of a scam.

I would personally rather be able to set my own records for the numbers,
for the obvious reason that anybody connecting to the number using e164
would be doing so without me paying to receive the call.

Can anyone shed any light on this situation?

Thomas Kenyon wrote:
> If magrathea et al make money from terminations through them to 0800
> numbers, then this looks to me like a bit of a scam.
>
> I would personally rather be able to set my own records for the numbers,
> for the obvious reason that anybody connecting to the number using e164
> would be doing so without me paying to receive the call.
>
> Can anyone shed any light on this situation?

I would be surprised if Magrathea are making any money off of it. If you
email the maintainers I am sure they will be happy to add your block of
numbers. As they have been allocated to your organization, it would be
contrary to their goal to deny such a request.

I have my own +44-1xxx block registered, and I think it is a great
service having free access to toll-free numbers in several countries
(including uk, usa, canada and australia).

Chris Hills wrote:
> Thomas Kenyon wrote:
>> If magrathea et al make money from terminations through them to 0800
>> numbers, then this looks to me like a bit of a scam.
>>
>> I would personally rather be able to set my own records for the numbers,
>> for the obvious reason that anybody connecting to the number using e164
>> would be doing so without me paying to receive the call.
>>
>> Can anyone shed any light on this situation?
>
> I would be surprised if Magrathea are making any money off of it.

By my reading of this, they are offering to connect 0800 calls via VoIP
if there is no specific entry for the full number. If so, they are
perhaps offering a useful service. They will receive a tiny amount of
money from the network they pass the call onto, possibly or possibly not
enough to really support the service.

Paul Cupis wrote:
> Chris Hills wrote:
>> Thomas Kenyon wrote:
>>> If magrathea et al make money from terminations through them to 0800
>>> numbers, then this looks to me like a bit of a scam.
>>>
>>> I would personally rather be able to set my own records for the numbers,
>>> for the obvious reason that anybody connecting to the number using e164
>>> would be doing so without me paying to receive the call.
>>>
>>> Can anyone shed any light on this situation?
>>
>> I would be surprised if Magrathea are making any money off of it.
>
> By my reading of this, they are offering to connect 0800 calls via VoIP
> if there is no specific entry for the full number. If so, they are
> perhaps offering a useful service. They will receive a tiny amount of
> money from the network they pass the call onto, possibly or possibly not
> enough to really support the service.

I thought (from memory) that traditionally with 0800 numbers the owner
is billed for the call as a 2 hop process, You pay for the leg of the
call that connects the caller to london, then the leg of the call that
connects to yourself.

This is why the cost was prohibitively expensive for lots of
organisations. (even now you can pay over 5p/min to receive calls on an
0800 number).

Presumably the money was divvied up between whoever terminated the call
in london and whoever terminates the call at the permises of the company
that receives the call. (which in most cases was BT at each end).

The point I was making is that if magrathea (and the other 2 companies,
one of which is in Wein, Austria) are handling the call and terminating
it to the destination, then they will be taking the double termination
fee and paying for the termination to the destination.

I would rather be able to set the record myself so that I'm not paying
for them to carry the traffic that I don't neccesarily want them to.

I was also wondering whether this was entirely legal. (could from one
angle suggest fraudulently taking money from BT and other operators).

One of the telephone numbers on our customer database is for a
department of BT, whose records also state Magrathea etc.

Thomas Kenyon <tom@art-it-services.co.uk> wrote:

>The point I was making is that if magrathea (and the other 2 companies,
>one of which is in Wein, Austria) are handling the call and terminating
>it to the destination, then they will be taking the double termination
>fee and paying for the termination to the destination.
>
>I would rather be able to set the record myself so that I'm not paying
>for them to carry the traffic that I don't neccesarily want them to.
>
>I was also wondering whether this was entirely legal. (could from one
>angle suggest fraudulently taking money from BT and other operators).
>
>One of the telephone numbers on our customer database is for a
>department of BT, whose records also state Magrathea etc.

I can answer this for Magrathea - we are simply offering to terminate 0800 (and
0808 and 0500 and 00800 incidently) without a requirement to register with us.
Yes we do earn a very small amount of transit revenue, but only in exactly the
same way that Orange, or Virgin Media do when you make an 0800 call from their
lines. We do not terminate directly, and the calls pass through BT as usual. I
can't possibily see how you could suggest that this is fraud!

We only provide a general entry for +44800 which can be overridden by longer
entries.

If you are unable to add a longer, specific entry into e164.org that's not our
fault - and you need to contact them and ask them why, you are probably doing
something wrong. Have you tried to make an entry for a geographic number? Did
that work?

Linus


--
Linus Surguy - Magrathea Telecommunications Ltd. Wholesale and retail telephone
services. www.magrathea-telecom.co.uk www.uknumber.co.uk www.callthrough.co.uk
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