"pbscott" <pbscott@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1159857481.607990.307530@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com
> Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest contacts
> Thanks
>
> Peter
On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 09:25:15 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
<ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>"pbscott" <pbscott@mac.com> wrote in message
>news:1159857481.607990.307530@h48g2000cwc.googleg roups.com
>> Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest contacts
>> Thanks
>>
>> Peter
>
>You could try http://www.gradwell.com/voip/
>
>Good reputation and the MD posts here sometimes.
>
>Ivor
>
If you are wanting this for business then Ivor's suggestion is
probably a good one. If it is more for personal use you might find the
free easypabx of interest.
Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
Skype Free Zone!!
pbscott wrote:
> Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest contacts
> Thanks
>
> Peter
>
Voipfone have a hosted PBX service, looks cheap.
I haven't personally used it though.
"Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:4oel3qFeb5l9U1@individual.net...
>
>
> "pbscott" <pbscott@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:1159857481.607990.307530@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com
>> Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest contacts
>> Thanks
>>
>> Peter
>
> You could try http://www.gradwell.com/voip/
>
> Good reputation and the MD posts here sometimes.
>
Gradwell still don't seem to be making it obviously clear if VAT is
included in their prices or not. If you have a look at this first link http://www.gradwell.com/voip/ the 'single users' option seems to be
aimed at non business use, (as opposed to the next box for small
businesses), the 'single users' link then takes you to http://www.gradwell.com/voip/trial.php where prices are quoted at £4.00
per month for the service, 1.25 pence per minute for UK calls, and 12p
per minute for mobile calls, there is no mention of VAT on this page at
all, but when you click on the 'Call Tariffs' link, it then states that
UK charges are 'Excluding VAT'.
As I understand it, if a service is offered to the general public, VAT
inclusive prices must be stated in all advertising, and if they are not,
the company cannot charge more than the advertised price. Perhaps if the
MD does monitor this group, he could address these concerns, and tell us
why they do not appear to be following this rule.
In message of Tue, 3 Oct 2006, Brian A writes
>On Tue, 3 Oct 2006 09:25:15 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
><ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>"pbscott" <pbscott@mac.com> wrote in message
>>news:1159857481.607990.307530@h48g2000cwc.google groups.com
>>> Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest contacts
> If it is more for personal use you might find the
>free easypabx of interest.
Except that it is unreliable, often down for hours at a time with no
explanation given.
> As I understand it, if a service is offered to the general public, VAT
> inclusive prices must be stated in all advertising, and if they are not,
> the company cannot charge more than the advertised price. Perhaps if the
> MD does monitor this group, he could address these concerns, and tell us
> why they do not appear to be following this rule.
>
Well my understanding was that it is only a requirement to say which way
round your prices are at (a) the point of sale (which we do anyway) and
(b) if you are likely to be in a situation where consumers (as distinct
businesses) might try and buy a business product.
As we sell business services, predominantly to business, it is my
understanding that legally we're ok - and I can't find the relevant bit
of text on the HMRC website to check :-)
As a rule though, all our prices are quoted exclusive of VAT.
Ivor Jones wrote:
> "pbscott" <pbscott@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:1159857481.607990.307530@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com
>> Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest contacts
>> Thanks
>>
>> Peter
>
> You could try http://www.gradwell.com/voip/
>
> Good reputation and the MD posts here sometimes.
>
Yes, we have a good few thousand customers on centrex.
>
> Well my understanding was that it is only a requirement to say which way
> round your prices are at (a) the point of sale (which we do anyway) and
> (b) if you are likely to be in a situation where consumers (as distinct
> businesses) might try and buy a business product.
>
I think the relevant part of the guideline is
"Prices may be indicated exclusive of VAT in shops where or
advertisements from which most of your business is with business
customers."
Which is badly worded but clear enough.
> As we sell business services, predominantly to business, it is my
> understanding that legally we're ok - and I can't find the relevant bit
> of text on the HMRC website to check :-)
I think you are right. I didn't have a problem with the pricing
information.
The best guidelines I found when researching pricing were on the dti
site - with an awful URL so try http://tinyurl.com/fv3q4
Be aware, its a PDF file.
"Peter Gradwell" <peter@gradwell.com> wrote in message
news:452271ef$0$632$bed64819@news.gradwell.net...
> hi
>
>> As I understand it, if a service is offered to the general public,
>> VAT inclusive prices must be stated in all advertising, and if they
>> are not, the company cannot charge more than the advertised price.
>> Perhaps if the MD does monitor this group, he could address these
>> concerns, and tell us why they do not appear to be following this
>> rule.
>
> Well my understanding was that it is only a requirement to say which
> way round your prices are at (a) the point of sale (which we do
> anyway) and (b) if you are likely to be in a situation where consumers
> (as distinct businesses) might try and buy a business product.
>
> As we sell business services, predominantly to business, it is my
> understanding that legally we're ok - and I can't find the relevant
> bit of text on the HMRC website to check :-)
>
> As a rule though, all our prices are quoted exclusive of VAT.
>
Perhaps the following link might help, especially this section:-
Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 2705
The Consumer Protection (Code of Practice for Traders on Price
Indications) Approval Order 2005
Value Added Tax
(i) Price indications to consumers
2.2.7 All price indications you give to private consumers, by whatever
means, should include VAT.
(ii) Price indications to business customers
2.2.8 Prices may be indicated exclusive of VAT at an outlet or through
advertisements from which most of your business is with business
customers. If you also conduct business at that outlet or through these
advertisements with consumers, however, you should make it clear that
the prices exclude VAT and you should
(a) display VAT inclusive prices with equal prominence; or
(b) display prominent statements that the quoted prices exclude VAT and
state the appropriate rate. It should be noted that VAT inclusive prices
for all goods offered by traders to consumers are required by the Price
Marking Order 2004[8] (further information can be obtained from your
local Trading Standards Service).
"Peter Gradwell" <peter@gradwell.com> wrote in message
news:45227204$0$632$bed64819@news.gradwell.net
> Ivor Jones wrote:
> > "pbscott" <pbscott@mac.com> wrote in message
> > news:1159857481.607990.307530@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com
> > > Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest
> > > contacts Thanks
> > >
> > > Peter
> >
> > You could try http://www.gradwell.com/voip/
> >
> > Good reputation and the MD posts here sometimes.
> >
>
>
> Yes, we have a good few thousand customers on centrex.
>
> cheers
> peter
Looked into it but it's a bit OTT for my requirements. The link to/from
Sipgate is now working ok anyway, thanks Peter..!
"pbscott" <pbscott@mac.com> wrote in message
news:1159857481.607990.307530@h48g2000cwc.googlegr oups.com...
> Looking into Hosted VOIP PABX's, and one suggest contacts
> Thanks
>
> Peter
It depends what you want, Some charge quite a big monthly fee for all
features, where as others such as voipfone charge on a basis of what you
need you pay for such as IVR etc
so If you looking for just a simple system with a couple of extensions,
voipfone is probably best value
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 09:19:58 GMT, "Harry Stottle"
<sorryspamdoesntwork@nospam.uk.co> wrote:
>As I understand it, if a service is offered to the general public, VAT
>inclusive prices must be stated
As I understand it, the word "primarily" is in there.
>in all advertising,
Just advertising to the general public.
>and if they are not,
>the company cannot charge more than the advertised price.
No, that's utter drivel. The rules are about how you display prices.
They do not control what you can charge.
For example, I could offer to sell you a new Mercedes for £100, but
when you attempt to take me up on that offer, I decline your proposed
contract and ask £80,000 instead. That would be entirely legal and you
have the choice of accepting the £80,000 deal or not buying.
However, if I'd advertised it as a Mercedes for £100 I would have
published a misleading advertisement. The advertising would not have
been entirely legal, but that would not prevent me setting a higher
price.
Gradwell primarily markets its services to businesses, and so is quite
in order to advertise the ex-VAT prices. Presumably anyone with a
computer and a web browser will have a calculator, but if not, there
is always the option of Google: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=7.00+*+1.175
<hairydog@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:a9f8i216kbj6354t509731nqqutodeqbvo@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 09:19:58 GMT, "Harry Stottle"
> <sorryspamdoesntwork@nospam.uk.co> wrote:
>
>>As I understand it, if a service is offered to the general public, VAT
>>inclusive prices must be stated
>
> As I understand it, the word "primarily" is in there.
>
>>in all advertising,
>
> Just advertising to the general public.
>
>>and if they are not,
>>the company cannot charge more than the advertised price.
>
> No, that's utter drivel. The rules are about how you display prices.
> They do not control what you can charge.
<snip irelevant information about buying a car>
We are discussing VAT charges, and if they should be displayed fully
inclusive with the advertised prices of goods and services, for items
offered for sale to non business customers. From what I have now read on
this subject, it seems that it is illegal, when including a price in an
advert, to advertise goods or services to non business customers without
stating a VAT inclusive price, and this appears to be at any stage in
the purchasing process, so if you cannot legally advertise an item, or
service, to non business customers without a VAT inclusive price, it
then follows that any prices advertised must be the total price the
company can charge, inclusive of VAT, hence my previous statement about
the company not being able to charge more than the advertised price.
>
> Gradwell primarily markets its services to businesses, and so is quite
> in order to advertise the ex-VAT prices. Presumably anyone with a
> computer and a web browser will have a calculator, but if not, there
> is always the option of Google:
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=7.00+*+1.175
>
Again, from what I have read, even if a company is primarily targeting
business customers, this does not excuse them from their obligations
when advertising, or selling, to non business customers.
This type of legislation was brought in to protect consumers against
misleading advertising, where some companies tried to make their prices
seem lower than other companies by not including VAT, even though the
consumer had no way to purchase those goods, or services, without paying
VAT, (unlike a business customer who could claim back the VAT). It
should not be up to the customer to have to work out what the actual
price is, including VAT, the inclusive price should be clearly stated.
Considering the heavy fines that can be imposed for companies not
complying with the appropriate legislation, if I was running a business,
I would want to make sure that I did comply, even if available
information provided about the legislation often seems confusing, and
sometimes misleading.
On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:52:37 GMT, "Harry Stottle"
<sorryspamdoesntwork@nospam.uk.co> wrote:
><snip irelevant information about buying a car>
It was relevant, because it was clarifying the principle. However, if
you can't even spell irrelevant, perhaps you didn't grasp that?
>
>We are discussing VAT charges, and if they should be displayed fully
>inclusive with the advertised prices of goods and services, for items
>offered for sale to non business customers. From what I have now read on
>this subject, it seems that it is illegal, when including a price in an
>advert, to advertise goods or services to non business customers without
>stating a VAT inclusive price, and this appears to be at any stage in
>the purchasing process,
There you have it. "to advertise goods or services to non business
customers". Gradwell is a company that offers services to businesses.
Their website is targeted at businesses. Are you really suggesting
that there is a significant market for domestic PABX systems?
The main heading of their home page has three bits: email,
web_hosting, business_voip - which suggests that their target market
for voip is businesses.
Having said that, I do agree that the bit of their site that is
labeled "VoIP for single users" ..."to use VoIP at home to keep in
touch with friends and family here and overseas." seems to be targeted
at non-business users, and there is no mention that the quoted prices
don't include VAT. You have to search quite hard to find that out.
However, it looks very much like Gradwell paid a lot of money for that
very pretty but useless website, and maybe didn't have a lot of say
about how it was done.
You may be concerned that it isn't clear about VAT, but others might
find the fact that it fails to meet even the basic requirements of the
DDA more of a problem. Needless to say, the html and css both fail
validation as well, and it is coded in such a way that it will never
do well with search engines.
Gradwell were clearly conned by slick sales people. Sorry Peter, but
it's true. You should have googled for website specialists.
<hairydog@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:614gi2hu3m28pda8f12iid0n1jes48taf7@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:52:37 GMT, "Harry Stottle"
> <sorryspamdoesntwork@nospam.uk.co> wrote:
>
>><snip irelevant information about buying a car>
>
> It was relevant, because it was clarifying the principle. However, if
> you can't even spell irrelevant, perhaps you didn't grasp that?
>>
>>We are discussing VAT charges, and if they should be displayed fully
>>inclusive with the advertised prices of goods and services, for items
>>offered for sale to non business customers. From what I have now read
>>on
>>this subject, it seems that it is illegal, when including a price in
>>an
>>advert, to advertise goods or services to non business customers
>>without
>>stating a VAT inclusive price, and this appears to be at any stage in
>>the purchasing process,
>
> There you have it. "to advertise goods or services to non business
> customers". Gradwell is a company that offers services to businesses.
> Their website is targeted at businesses. Are you really suggesting
> that there is a significant market for domestic PABX systems?
>
> The main heading of their home page has three bits: email,
> web_hosting, business_voip - which suggests that their target market
> for voip is businesses.
>
> Having said that, I do agree that the bit of their site that is
> labeled "VoIP for single users" ..."to use VoIP at home to keep in
> touch with friends and family here and overseas." seems to be targeted
> at non-business users, and there is no mention that the quoted prices
> don't include VAT. You have to search quite hard to find that out.
>
> However, it looks very much like Gradwell paid a lot of money for that
> very pretty but useless website, and maybe didn't have a lot of say
> about how it was done.
>
> You may be concerned that it isn't clear about VAT, but others might
> find the fact that it fails to meet even the basic requirements of the
> DDA more of a problem. Needless to say, the html and css both fail
> validation as well, and it is coded in such a way that it will never
> do well with search engines.
>
> Gradwell were clearly conned by slick sales people. Sorry Peter, but
> it's true. You should have googled for website specialists.
>
Perhaps Peter Gradwell should forward this thread to Bath Trading
Standards, and let them comment on the legality of Gradwell's
advertising, pricing, and website, in general.
"Harry Stottle" <sorryspamdoesntwork@nospam.uk.co> wrote in
message news:kLVVg.13619$if7.5903@newsfe1-win.ntli.net
> <hairydog@despammed.com> wrote in message
> news:614gi2hu3m28pda8f12iid0n1jes48taf7@4ax.com...
[snip]
> > Gradwell were clearly conned by slick sales people.
> > Sorry Peter, but it's true. You should have googled for
> > website specialists.
>
> Perhaps Peter Gradwell should forward this thread to Bath
> Trading Standards, and let them comment on the legality
> of Gradwell's advertising, pricing, and website, in
> general.
Personally, I find the Gradwell website to be quite good. Not the best
I've come across, but certainly not the worst. If I have any criticism at
all, it's that I personally find the user interface for the single line
VoIP account to be a little hard to negotiate, but it's usable.
Hosted VOIP PABX 
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