Ofcom today confirmed that from 8th September 2008, Voice over
Internet Protocol (VoIP) services that allow users to make calls to
normal national phone numbers must also have the ability to connect to
999 and 112.
Statement: Regulation of VoIP services: Access to the emergency
services.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
"PhilT" <newsnet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fad996d5-1d3b-4cc7-af30-5422a92b0c60@o6g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Ofcom today confirmed that from 8th September 2008, Voice over
> Internet Protocol (VoIP) services that allow users to make calls to
> normal national phone numbers must also have the ability to connect to
> 999 and 112.
>
> Statement: Regulation of VoIP services: Access to the emergency
> services.
>
> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/cond...voipstatement/
AFAICS this doesn't begin to address the fact that many of us use offshore
providers.
I've got the mental image of queues of ambulances and fire appliences
waiting to embark at Zeebrugge.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
PhilT <newsnet@gmail.com> writes:
> If you're bright enough to use an overseas provider you don't need
> OFCOM to tell you your phone can't dial 999.
What should be important is your physical location at the time of making
the call, not where the account is registered nor which provider you
use. Especially if you have VOIP software on your laptop, you can
connect to your account from almost anywhere in the world. So rather
than OfCom mandating it in the UK, FCC mandating in the USA etc., it
should be mandated worldwide that emergency calls get routed according
to the location of the IP address originating the call.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
Graham. wrote:
> AFAICS this doesn't begin to address the fact that many of us use offshore
> providers.
So you sit on an account which does offer this service like
voipfone.co.uk and have it for use on numbers which are more expensive
via an offshore provider..
e.g. 0800 0500 0845 0870 etc plus of course 999 or 911 or whatever.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
"Graham Murray" <newspost@gmurray.org.uk> wrote in message
news:878x49qnmr.fsf@newton.gmurray.org.uk
: : PhilT <newsnet@gmail.com> writes:
: :
: : : If you're bright enough to use an overseas provider
: : : you don't need OFCOM to tell you your phone can't
: : : dial 999.
: :
: : What should be important is your physical location at
: : the time of making the call, not where the account is
: : registered nor which provider you use. Especially if
: : you have VOIP software on your laptop, you can connect
: : to your account from almost anywhere in the world. So
: : rather than OfCom mandating it in the UK, FCC mandating
: : in the USA etc., it should be mandated worldwide that
: : emergency calls get routed according to the location of
: : the IP address originating the call.
Hmm. I use a proxy server in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Even my ISP's IP address
resolves to Brighton. Both somewhat distant from my true location.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
"Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:5ro5hfF15oc7mU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "Graham Murray" <newspost@gmurray.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:878x49qnmr.fsf@newton.gmurray.org.uk
> : : PhilT <newsnet@gmail.com> writes:
> : :
> : : : If you're bright enough to use an overseas provider
> : : : you don't need OFCOM to tell you your phone can't
> : : : dial 999.
> : :
> : : What should be important is your physical location at
> : : the time of making the call, not where the account is
> : : registered nor which provider you use. Especially if
> : : you have VOIP software on your laptop, you can connect
> : : to your account from almost anywhere in the world. So
> : : rather than OfCom mandating it in the UK, FCC mandating
> : : in the USA etc., it should be mandated worldwide that
> : : emergency calls get routed according to the location of
> : : the IP address originating the call.
>
> Hmm. I use a proxy server in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Even my ISP's IP address
> resolves to Brighton. Both somewhat distant from my true location.
>
> Ivor
>
I had to use an old dial-up account in to obtain my
Sipgate UK DDIs, somehow Sipgate was convinced
my Broadband IP was non-UK and would not offer me
a UK geo number.
--
Graham
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
On Dec 5, 1:25 pm, Graham Murray <newsp...@gmurray.org.uk> wrote:
> It should be mandated worldwide
using the standard legal, commercial and cultural systems in place.
Yeah, right.
There isn't even a standard emergency number *within* some countries,
let alone across multiple countries.
> that emergency calls get routed according
> to the location of the IP address originating the call.
at best that might put you in the right country. Most VoIP systems
offer accounts on a per-country basis, Sipgate(UK) accounts would
route 112 to a different place than Sipgate(DE) for example, are you
proposing that calling 112 from a US IP address would route it into
the US 911 system ?
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
Graham. wrote:
>>
>> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/cond...voipstatement/
>
> AFAICS this doesn't begin to address the fact that many of us use offshore
> providers.
> I've got the mental image of queues of ambulances and fire appliences
> waiting to embark at Zeebrugge.
>
The interesting thing is that if they are providing a service in the UK,
with UK numbers, then they probably have to follow the rules. OFCOM are
certaintly contemplating how to do cross border enforcement.
cheers
peter
--
peter gradwell. gradwell dot com Ltd. http://www.gradwell.com/
<email/web_hosting/business_voip> <t:01225 800 810>
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
"Graham." <me@privacy.com> wrote in message
news:fj6o5b$s2k$1@registered.motzarella.org
[snip]
: : I had to use an old dial-up account in to obtain my
: : Sipgate UK DDIs, somehow Sipgate was convinced
: : my Broadband IP was non-UK and would not offer me
: : a UK geo number.
Hmm, what ISP..? I've heard of this problem with AOL but not any others.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
or
"PhilT" <newsnet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fad996d5-1d3b-4cc7-af30-5422a92b0c60@o6g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Ofcom today confirmed that from 8th September 2008, Voice over
> Internet Protocol (VoIP) services that allow users to make calls to
> normal national phone numbers must also have the ability to connect to
> 999 and 112.
>
> Statement: Regulation of VoIP services: Access to the emergency
> services.
>
> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/cond...voipstatement/
Please read: must have the "ability" to connect to 999 or 112
I read all the inteersting reactions here about off-shore providers, about
traveling users with VOIP software on the laptops, about proxy-servers in
Brzail etc ...
I believe the point is that many VOIP users are also using VOIP at Home, at
a fixed location
For those users, it would be useful to be "able" to dial Emergency services
Sipgate in Germany for example offers the "ability" to dial 112. How this
works ?
a) users can opt-in or opt-out to this service. Hence traveling users,
without fixed location will opt-out.
b) users need to register to their website with their physical address. It
is the user's responsability to change their physical adress in case you
change location (for example: change to your week-end address every Friday
evening.
c) Calls to 112 or re-routed by Sipgate to the emergency service which
serves your location.
I believe this works fine, and there is no reason why this could not be
implemented widely (even with off-shore providers).
Of course, it will always remain the user's responsability to make sure the
system knows their whereabouts.
I don't think identification via the IP adress would ever work (for all the
reasons mentioned in this tread).
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
PhilT <newsnet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 5, 12:06 pm, "Graham." <m...@privacy.com> wrote:
>
>> AFAICS this doesn't begin to address the fact that many of us use offshore
>> providers.
>
>If you're bright enough to use an overseas provider you don't need
>OFCOM to tell you your phone can't dial 999.
Technically, if you are using a service marketed in/to the UK the rules apply to
your service no matter where they are based. Whether Ofcom can manage to enforce
it is a different matter.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
"PhilT" <newsnet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fad996d5-1d3b-4cc7-af30-5422a92b0c60@o6g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> Ofcom today confirmed that from 8th September 2008, Voice over
> Internet Protocol (VoIP) services that allow users to make calls to
> normal national phone numbers must also have the ability to connect to
> 999 and 112.
>
> Statement: Regulation of VoIP services: Access to the emergency
> services.
>
> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/consult/cond...voipstatement/
Try dialling 999 from Cyprus, and you on the mobile network. Here we have
mobile starting 999!!!
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
On Dec 6, 12:31 am, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
> "Graham." <m...@privacy.com> wrote in message
> : : I had to use an old dial-up account in to obtain my
> : : Sipgate UK DDIs, somehow Sipgate was convinced
> : : my Broadband IP was non-UK and would not offer me
> : : a UK geo number.
>
> Hmm, what ISP..? I've heard of this problem with AOL but not any others.
>
Tiscali had a similar problem a few months ago with IP addresses
starting 79, There was a thread about it in one of the digital tv
groups, Someome had problems getting the ITV Local news streams to
work because the server belived the Tiscali was not based in the UK.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
Linus Surguy wrote:
> PhilT <newsnet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Dec 5, 12:06 pm, "Graham." <m...@privacy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> AFAICS this doesn't begin to address the fact that many of us use
>>> offshore providers.
>>
>>If you're bright enough to use an overseas provider you don't need
>>OFCOM to tell you your phone can't dial 999.
>
> Technically, if you are using a service marketed in/to the UK the rules
> apply to your service no matter where they are based. Whether Ofcom can
> manage to enforce it is a different matter.
So what is Ofcom's definition of 'marketed to the UK'? Is it enough to have
web site in English? The only place I've ever heard about the various
Betamax services [for example] is in this august forum; has anyone else
ever seen any of their marketing?
Ofcom are going to have to put a bit of thought into this to avoid confusion
and FUD.
--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
15:21:20 up 25 days, 4:00, 2 users, load average: 0.12, 0.12, 0.13
Convergence, n: The act of using separate DSL circuits for voice and data
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
On Dec 6, 1:22 pm, "TheDragon" <Respond_To_News_o...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Try dialling 999 from Cyprus, and you on the mobile network. Here we have
> mobile starting 999!!!
I fail to see how that is relevant.
The requirement under discussion is for UK VoIP Service Providers to
provide emergency service provision. If I was using such a service in
Cyprus and I dialled 999 it would get routed the same way as if
dialled it when in the UK.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
"Obsidian Order" <obsidian.order@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:a762a580-b058-4ba7-9e6c-d05ad39fe76b@l1g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 6, 12:31 am, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
>> "Graham." <m...@privacy.com> wrote in message
>
>> : : I had to use an old dial-up account in to obtain my
>> : : Sipgate UK DDIs, somehow Sipgate was convinced
>> : : my Broadband IP was non-UK and would not offer me
>> : : a UK geo number.
>>
>> Hmm, what ISP..? I've heard of this problem with AOL but not any others.
>>
> Tiscali had a similar problem a few months ago with IP addresses
> starting 79, There was a thread about it in one of the digital tv
> groups, Someome had problems getting the ITV Local news streams to
> work because the server belived the Tiscali was not based in the UK.
That sounds like the problem I had about 2 years ago.
The problem resolved itself when I uograded to their 2Meg service
--
Graham
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
<viperdudeuk@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:435f5b4b-e801-462d-8280-9216d5363d56@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com
: : On Dec 6, 1:22 pm, "TheDragon"
: : <Respond_To_News_o...@gmail.com> wrote:
: :
: : : Try dialling 999 from Cyprus, and you on the mobile
: : : network. Here we have mobile starting 999!!!
: :
: : I fail to see how that is relevant.
: :
: : The requirement under discussion is for UK VoIP Service
: : Providers to provide emergency service provision. If I
: : was using such a service in Cyprus and I dialled 999 it
: : would get routed the same way as if dialled it when in
: : the UK.
Which is rather silly when you think about it. What would the UK emergency
services be able to do for you in Cyprus..?
At the end of the day the only way anyone can remotely identify you when
using VoIP is by your IP address. This is next to useless for many people
who get a different dynamic address every time they switch on or reboot
their system. Even then all it will do is tell them where your ISP is
based (mine is in Brighton, but I'm not..!)
Also if you use a proxy server (I use one based in Brazil) then it gets
even sillier..!
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
On Dec 7, 1:43 am, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
> At the end of the day the only way anyone can remotely identify you when
> using VoIP is by your IP address. This is next to useless for many people
> who get a different dynamic address every time they switch on or reboot
> their system. Even then all it will do is tell them where your ISP is
> based (mine is in Brighton, but I'm not..!)
>
> Also if you use a proxy server (I use one based in Brazil) then it gets
> even sillier..!
If you read the Ofcom statement you will see one of the proposals is
to get the ISP to confirm subscriber address details in real time to
the emergency services. This in theory might be a solution in the
middle to long run but would need massive cooperation between the
various parties to work. However if such a system was setup it would
easily cope with dynamic IP allocation to subscribers.
The use of proxy servers would not necessarily stop this system from
working either.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
On Dec 7, 7:06 am, "viperdud...@gmail.com" <viperdud...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> If you read the Ofcom statement you will see one of the proposals is
> to get the ISP to confirm subscriber address details in real time to
> the emergency services.
I think this is fairly pointless. I have phoned the emergency services
on numerous occasions and in nearly every case had considerable
difficulty getting them to understand or accept the location of the
incident - the last thing we need to give them is some "evidence" of
where they think we are to add to their existing assumptions,
misconceptions and geographical ignorance.
I have reported fires at the other side of the valley, accidents a
couple of miles from my home, argued with some fuckwit about whether
an accident that I was looking at was where I said it was or 3 miles
south on the other carriageway where he insisted it was (!), tried to
convince a fire service operator that the three appliances she assured
me were dealing with a fire were not at the large conflagration I was
staring at etc etc.
Location information should only be secondary to the verbal evidence
of the caller IMO.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
On Dec 7, 8:45 am, PhilT <news...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think this is fairly pointless. I have phoned the emergency services
> on numerous occasions and in nearly every case had considerable
> difficulty getting them to understand or accept the location of the
> incident - the last thing we need to give them is some "evidence" of
> where they think we are to add to their existing assumptions,
> misconceptions and geographical ignorance.
>
> I have reported fires at the other side of the valley, accidents a
> couple of miles from my home, argued with some fuckwit about whether
> an accident that I was looking at was where I said it was or 3 miles
> south on the other carriageway where he insisted it was (!), tried to
> convince a fire service operator that the three appliances she assured
> me were dealing with a fire were not at the large conflagration I was
> staring at etc etc.
>
> Location information should only be secondary to the verbal evidence
> of the caller IMO.
Well I accept all of that, the nature of VoIP services at the moment
means there is no accurate way of determining a persons location.
There are a number of challenges to overcome to get anywhere near the
ability of a PSTN call to deliver location information.
Also the stupidity/ignorance of the emergency call handler or the
caller to the emergency service is a huge factor.
As for arguing with the call handler its probably a case of "Computer
says no!"
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
<viperdudeuk@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:acf0ba55-8e52-44f9-8c23-6bfc873532ad@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com
: : On Dec 7, 8:45 am, PhilT <news...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
: : Location information should only be secondary to the
: : : verbal evidence of the caller IMO.
: :
: : Well I accept all of that, the nature of VoIP services
: : at the moment means there is no accurate way of
: : determining a persons location. There are a number of
: : challenges to overcome to get anywhere near the ability
: : of a PSTN call to deliver location information.
: :
: : Also the stupidity/ignorance of the emergency call
: : handler or the caller to the emergency service is a
: : huge factor.
: :
: : As for arguing with the call handler its probably a
: : case of "Computer says no!"
: :
Well at the end of all that, what is the point..? Most of us have mobiles
and I for one have called the emergency services from mine on several
occasions. They have asked for the location of the incident on each and
every occasion, not my home address.
Re: Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September
On Dec 7, 12:06 pm, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
> Well at the end of all that, what is the point..? Most of us have mobiles
> and I for one have called the emergency services from mine on several
> occasions. They have asked for the location of the incident on each and
> every occasion, not my home address.
Currently VoIP calls to UK emergency services can have a Internet Call
flag applied to alert the call handler, I believe the same is true of
mobile calls and the cell the call orignated from can be retrieved as
well.
Mandatory 112 / 999 over VoIP from next September 
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