New to SIP user / router questions ..

Hi All,

I have need to change my cable (NTL) router and I was being pointed
towards the DrayTek offerings as they were supposed to be pretty
hardy.

Whilst looking at the DrayTek stuff the hardware VOIP thing got me
going and was wondering if I could *realistically* drop our second
telephone line (primary BT for *us*, second line via NTL for daughter)
and replace it with a VOIP solution. We could then put the ~9 quid /
month line rental saved towards a faster BB service or summat (beer?).
;-)

By the way of a test I've registered with Sipgate and installed the
X-Lite SIP client (and much like Skype to use) and taken a call from
our land line and a mobile, so far, so good.

So, do the DrayTek offering live up to their name would you say or
would I actually get the same function / reliability with something
else (cheaper) please?

Did I spot the 'Billion' brand of routers look very similar to some of
the DrayTek's (and do they do a cable model)?

From the router I only really need the basic router functions (NAT /
FW / PF etc) and ideally (if it looks like it might be a goer) 2 x SIP
ports (one for daughter, one for me).

All the best and thanks for your time ..

T i m

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:18:38 GMT, T i m <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I have need to change my cable (NTL) router and I was being pointed
>towards the DrayTek offerings as they were supposed to be pretty
>hardy.
>
>Whilst looking at the DrayTek stuff the hardware VOIP thing got me
>going and was wondering if I could *realistically* drop our second
>telephone line (primary BT for *us*, second line via NTL for daughter)
>and replace it with a VOIP solution. We could then put the ~9 quid /
>month line rental saved towards a faster BB service or summat (beer?).
>;-)
No reason at all why you shouldn't run voip. There are a few people on
this group who don't have a landline at all - just broadband.
>
>By the way of a test I've registered with Sipgate and installed the
>X-Lite SIP client (and much like Skype to use) and taken a call from
>our land line and a mobile, so far, so good.
>
>So, do the DrayTek offering live up to their name would you say or
>would I actually get the same function / reliability with something
>else (cheaper) please?
>
>Did I spot the 'Billion' brand of routers look very similar to some of
>the DrayTek's (and do they do a cable model)?
>
>From the router I only really need the basic router functions (NAT /
>FW / PF etc) and ideally (if it looks like it might be a goer) 2 x SIP
>ports (one for daughter, one for me).
>
>All the best and thanks for your time ..
>
>T i m
I can't comment on routers specifiically, I usually check out reviews
on various sites, including Amazon. If you are on NTL then,
presumably, you have an ethernet modem to which you can connect a
router.
The Fritzbox Fon 7140 is a very versatile voip, wireless, router that
can be used on ADSL (it has a modem included in the box) or with
cable, in this case a connection is made to the first ethernet
connection on the box from the cable modem.
You can Froogle or check out
http://tinyurl.com/yqn9xf
on broadbandstuff.co.uk


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On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 13:27:37 GMT, Brian A
<no_spam_bca1000@hotmail.com> wrote:

>>
>>Whilst looking at the DrayTek stuff the hardware VOIP thing got me
>>going and was wondering if I could *realistically* drop our second
>>telephone line (primary BT for *us*, second line via NTL for daughter)
>>and replace it with a VOIP solution. We could then put the ~9 quid /
>>month line rental saved towards a faster BB service or summat (beer?).
>>;-)
>No reason at all why you shouldn't run voip. There are a few people on
>this group who don't have a landline at all - just broadband.

Excellent. I don't think I'd go quite that far yet so will keep the BT
line but the second one could easily go (especially considering how
lightly used it is).
>>

>>From the router I only really need the basic router functions (NAT /
>>FW / PF etc) and ideally (if it looks like it might be a goer) 2 x SIP
>>ports (one for daughter, one for me).
>>

>I can't comment on routers specifiically, I usually check out reviews
>on various sites, including Amazon.

Funny, I rarely think of Amazon for such kit (although Google often
takes me there). ;-)


> If you are on NTL then,
>presumably, you have an ethernet modem to which you can connect a
>router.

Indeed.

>The Fritzbox Fon 7140 is a very versatile voip, wireless, router that
>can be used on ADSL (it has a modem included in the box) or with
>cable, in this case a connection is made to the first ethernet
>connection on the box from the cable modem.

Really (clever).

>You can Froogle or check out
>http://tinyurl.com/yqn9xf
>on broadbandstuff.co.uk

Hmm, it seems to do everything on my wish list Brian just I can't see
mention of the direct connect thing via the first Ethernet port (but I
guess you have one so know that's how it works)?

Do we know 'Fritz' .. have they been about long?

I didn't spot any support options on their web site, firmware updates
/ manuals etc?

http://www.fritzbox.eu/

All the best ..

T i m

> Hmm, it seems to do everything on my wish list Brian just I can't see
> mention of the direct connect thing via the first Ethernet port (but I
> guess you have one so know that's how it works)?

It does that for sure. I have the 7170 (=7140 + ISDN) and using that
configuration.

> Do we know 'Fritz' .. have they been about long?
> I didn't spot any support options on their web site, firmware updates
> / manuals etc?
> http://www.fritzbox.eu/

Their main website is www.avm.de (also in English)

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:28:51 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> Hmm, it seems to do everything on my wish list Brian just I can't see
>> mention of the direct connect thing via the first Ethernet port (but I
>> guess you have one so know that's how it works)?
>
>It does that for sure. I have the 7170 (=7140 + ISDN) and using that
>configuration.

So ignoring the ISDN port John?
>
>> Do we know 'Fritz' .. have they been about long?
>> I didn't spot any support options on their web site, firmware updates
>> / manuals etc?
>> http://www.fritzbox.eu/
>
>Their main website is www.avm.de (also in English)
>
Ah, that's better, thanks ;-)

So, where did you hear about Fritz John and are you happy with your
choice?

All the best ..

T i m

>>It does that for sure. I have the 7170 (=7140 + ISDN) and using that
>>configuration.
> So ignoring the ISDN port John?

I am using it, of course.

> So, where did you hear about Fritz John and are you
> happy with your choice?

Everyone in the VOIP world knows about the Fritz!box :-)

On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 20:16:28 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>>>It does that for sure. I have the 7170 (=7140 + ISDN) and using that
>>>configuration.
>> So ignoring the ISDN port John?
>
>I am using it, of course.

Oh, I thought ISDN had gone these days (mind you I have been out of
telecomms for a few years now).
>
>> So, where did you hear about Fritz John and are you
>> happy with your choice?
>
>Everyone in the VOIP world knows about the Fritz!box :-)

Ah, and now as do I! ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

> Oh, I thought ISDN had gone these days (mind you I
> have been out of telecomms for a few years now).

ISDN is still very popular in Germany. I am using ISDN phone because they
work very conveniently; with the Fritz!box I can use them to call over VOIP
and even over my analogue fixed phone line!

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:14:11 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> Oh, I thought ISDN had gone these days (mind you I
>> have been out of telecomms for a few years now).
>
>ISDN is still very popular in Germany.

Wasn't that (historically) because Germany has many areas of high
population density, separated by some fairly large distances
(favouring a switched rather than leased line model)?

> I am using ISDN phone because they
>work very conveniently; with the Fritz!box I can use them to call over VOIP
>and even over my analogue fixed phone line!

Handy ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

Tim:
>So, where did you hear about Fritz John and are you happy with your
>choice?
Sipgate has been selling Fritz! boxes for quite some time,
there is a non WiFi model, see their website to compare prices.

I have not seen any serious complaints, just many questions, seems there a
many options to set up.
Regards,
Martin

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:57:51 +0100, "Martin²" <never@give.one> wrote:

>Tim:
>>So, where did you hear about Fritz John and are you happy with your
>>choice?
>Sipgate has been selling Fritz! boxes for quite some time,
>there is a non WiFi model, see their website to compare prices.

My first experience of Sipgate was a positive one (free local
telephone number, it worked (Via X-Lite) nearly first time etc) so I
like the idea they also sell the router that I may use with their
service.

There were some reviews (that could be earlier revision / versions)
that mention things like not being able to fully manage the DHCP scope
and some port forwarding details?

Also there is some suggestion that the cabling is a bit 'messy'
(adapters / link leads etc)?
>
>I have not seen any serious complaints, just many questions, seems there a
>many options to set up.

I don't mind that as long as you can get there in the end. ;-)

All the best .. and thanks for all your help Martin ;-)

T i m

> Wasn't that (historically) because Germany has many areas of high
> population density, separated by some fairly large distances
> (favouring a switched rather than leased line model)?

Not sure, actually. I just know that the German phonecompany was pushing
ISDN on their market (after all, it's their own invention) by making it the
same price as an analogue line.

The ISDN system is very cleverly integrated in the Fritz!box 7050 or 7170.
For instance:

- when you have a divert on your line, that text is visible on the screen of
the ISDN phone (on an analogue phone you would hear a different dialtone)

- each SIP provider gets a virtual MSN number in the Fritz!box, so you can
program your ISDN phone to work with SIP providers like they were MSN
numbers

- when dialing out using dial-rules in the Fritz!box, I can see on the
screen of my ISDN phone which SIP provider is being used. This works
dynamically: let's say I have setup my fixed line as the default, SIP
provider A for national calls (dial rule "0"), and SIP provider "B" for
international calls (dial rule "00"). Now, when picking up the ISDN phone,
its display shows the fixed line number. When I dial a "0", this changes to
SIP provider A, and when I dial another 0 (so the number begins with 00...)
this changes again to SIP provider B!

> There were some reviews (that could be earlier revision / versions)
> that mention things like not being able to fully manage the DHCP scope
> and some port forwarding details?

True, in the old firmwares the DHCP scope was fixed. This is now a user
settings (already for quite a while now).

> Also there is some suggestion that the cabling is a bit 'messy'
> (adapters / link leads etc)?

To save space on the box, they use the plugs in a non-standard way:

- on the 7050 and 7170 there is one RJ45 that is used for analogue in + ISDN
in + ADSL in, of course in a non-standard way. The phone outputs are
standard though (RJ11 per phone)

- on early models of the 7170 there was one RJ11 that was used for the 3
analogue phones. On the newer models they used a RJ11 for each phone.

Adapter cables are included though.

>>I have not seen any serious complaints, just many questions,
>>seems there a many options to set up.

They are indeed very configurable. For instance, the ADSL modem can be
turned off and then LAN port A can be used to connect it to a modem (for
instance for cable internet)... Or one can use it only as a telephone
exchange only... or only as Wireless access point, and so on...

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:32:18 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> Wasn't that (historically) because Germany has many areas of high
>> population density, separated by some fairly large distances
>> (favouring a switched rather than leased line model)?
>
>Not sure, actually. I just know that the German phonecompany was pushing
>ISDN on their market (after all, it's their own invention) by making it the
>same price as an analogue line.

I believe that was (is) the same in Italy as a mate was offered either
at the same price when he moved out there a few years back.
>
>The ISDN system is very cleverly integrated in the Fritz!box 7050 or 7170.
>For instance:

Ok ..
>
>- when you have a divert on your line, that text is visible on the screen of
>the ISDN phone (on an analogue phone you would hear a different dialtone)

Ok ..
>
>- each SIP provider gets a virtual MSN number in the Fritz!box, so you can
>program your ISDN phone to work with SIP providers like they were MSN
>numbers

Erm, by MSN do you mean as in Messenger or is this something different
John?
>
>- when dialing out using dial-rules in the Fritz!box, I can see on the
>screen of my ISDN phone which SIP provider is being used. This works
>dynamically: let's say I have setup my fixed line as the default, SIP
>provider A for national calls (dial rule "0"), and SIP provider "B" for
>international calls (dial rule "00").

Ok, follow so far ..

> Now, when picking up the ISDN phone,
>its display shows the fixed line number.

Nice ..

> When I dial a "0", this changes to
>SIP provider A, and when I dial another 0 (so the number begins with 00...)
>this changes again to SIP provider B!

That is quite clever, so you can be sure you are using the right
service etc.

Another Q on the Fritz!Box itself. I know I've been told that you can
also use it as a cable (rather than ADSL) router but I can't see any
'obvious' mention of this anywhere on any of their video demos, sales
blurb or the downloadable user manual?

Wouldn't you think if the box was so flexible they would 'signpost'
this feature more clearly (if it hadn't been mentioned I would have
discounted the Fritz!Box completely)?

All the best ..

T i m

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:39:23 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> There were some reviews (that could be earlier revision / versions)
>> that mention things like not being able to fully manage the DHCP scope
>> and some port forwarding details?
>
>True, in the old firmwares the DHCP scope was fixed. This is now a user
>settings (already for quite a while now).

Ah, brilliant, thanks. ;-)
>
>> Also there is some suggestion that the cabling is a bit 'messy'
>> (adapters / link leads etc)?
>
>To save space on the box, they use the plugs in a non-standard way:

Ok ..
>
>- on the 7050 and 7170 there is one RJ45 that is used for analogue in + ISDN
>in + ADSL in, of course in a non-standard way.

Indeed and ok ..

> The phone outputs are
>standard though (RJ11 per phone)

Although we generally use RJ45 (phone) in the UK but RJ11 is
reasonably convertible, all be it with a couple of different
configurations (on the RJ11 end).
>
>- on early models of the 7170 there was one RJ11 that was used for the 3
>analogue phones. On the newer models they used a RJ11 for each phone.

Ok, that sounds less confusing! ;-)
>
>Adapter cables are included though.

Just as well by the sound of it!
>
>>>I have not seen any serious complaints, just many questions,
>>>seems there a many options to set up.
>
>They are indeed very configurable. For instance, the ADSL modem can be
>turned off and then LAN port A can be used to connect it to a modem (for
>instance for cable internet)..

Ah! That's the bit I asked earlier so thanks. I wonder *why* they
don't make that clearer in the blurb John?


> Or one can use it only as a telephone
>exchange only... or only as Wireless access point, and so on...

I like the sound of that (although I already have a PABX here <g>) as
long as all this flexibility doesn't compromise any of the key
functionality ...

All the best and thanks again ..

T i m

> Erm, by MSN do you mean as in Messenger or is this
> something different John?

If you have extra numbers on your ISDN line (apart from the main number),
they are called MSN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Subscriber_Number

> Another Q on the Fritz!Box itself. I know I've been told that you can
> also use it as a cable (rather than ADSL) router but I can't see any
> 'obvious' mention of this anywhere on any of their video demos, sales
> blurb or the downloadable user manual?

I just checked the manual, and indeed, I also can't find it anywhere. I
guess the manuals are not very up to date. But it is there for sure; I used
it on both a 7050 and a 7170. On the settings page under Internet/Account
information one can select "Internet connection via DSL" or "Internet
connectio via LAN A".

> Wouldn't you think if the box was so flexible they would 'signpost'
> this feature more clearly (if it hadn't been mentioned I would have
> discounted the Fritz!Box completely)?

I don't know why. But ADSL is much more popular than Cable Internet in
Germany. And AVM are focussing their Fritz!boxes mainly for the German
market. That is a pity. The English firmwares don't get as many updates
are the German ones either...

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:53:50 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> Erm, by MSN do you mean as in Messenger or is this
>> something different John?
>
>If you have extra numbers on your ISDN line (apart from the main number),
>they are called MSN.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Subscriber_Number
>
Ah, thanks. I've only played with ISDN as far as data is concerned
(WAN) and that was a while ago.

>> Another Q on the Fritz!Box itself. I know I've been told that you can
>> also use it as a cable (rather than ADSL) router but I can't see any
>> 'obvious' mention of this anywhere on any of their video demos, sales
>> blurb or the downloadable user manual?
>
>I just checked the manual, and indeed, I also can't find it anywhere. I
>guess the manuals are not very up to date.

Strange, but I guess if where they are made (Germany) cable Internet
is rare so not considered a high profile feature?

>But it is there for sure; I used
>it on both a 7050 and a 7170.

I believe you John ;-)

> On the settings page under Internet/Account
>information one can select "Internet connection via DSL" or "Internet
>connectio via LAN A".

Hmm, I still wouldn't want to spend £100+ on that alone ... I mean, I
have used an ADSL router as an AP and hub by turning off the DHCP
function but it was still not an ideal solution. I currently have my
old Belkin cable router acting as an AP but there is a specific option
to do that in the menu (so turns off the routing / nat / fw functions
etc).

>
>> Wouldn't you think if the box was so flexible they would 'signpost'
>> this feature more clearly (if it hadn't been mentioned I would have
>> discounted the Fritz!Box completely)?
>
>I don't know why. But ADSL is much more popular than Cable Internet in
>Germany. And AVM are focussing their Fritz!boxes mainly for the German
>market. That is a pity. The English firmwares don't get as many updates
>are the German ones either...

Ah, so like I said earlier then, maybe as/ if they become more popular
in the UK all that will improve?

All the best and thanks again ..

T i m

> Hmm, I still wouldn't want to spend £100+ on that alone ...

There are *a lot* of them on eBay (model 7050), price around 60 euro. They
are all annex B in Germany, but since you don't need to use the ADSL modem -
that is no problem for you. At least, if you can live with the German
interface :-)

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:48:06 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> Hmm, I still wouldn't want to spend £100+ on that alone ...
>
>There are *a lot* of them on eBay (model 7050), price around 60 euro. They
>are all annex B in Germany, but since you don't need to use the ADSL modem -
>that is no problem for you.

Well I suppose. This is so confusing .. I mean if I was going to get
a FritZ!Box the fact that it did ADSL as well could be an advantage if
I move from NTL to something else?

> At least, if you can live with the German
>interface :-)

Not sure about that .. not got to grips with this in English yet!

Thinking out loud ..

The Linksys WTRP54G looks like It does everything I'm likely to need,
is the right price and has straightforward ports that work as_is (no
adaptors).

The Fritz!Box also looks good and does the same things (plus ADSL) but
is twice the price and does the extra things using non standard
interfaces.

The DrayTek also does what it says on the tin (with no extra adaptors)
has a good rep / history (quite a large following already and
therefore good support from the community at least) but the most
expensive.

I'm not sure Zyxel do a cable / wireless / dual voip box?

What to do ...

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:

>
>> The phone outputs are
>> standard though (RJ11 per phone)
>
> Although we generally use RJ45 (phone) in the UK but RJ11 is
> reasonably convertible, all be it with a couple of different
> configurations (on the RJ11 end).

RJ45 is an Ethernet connector. A BT connector doesn't have an "RJ"
number, just a BS number (which I can't remember!).

Any router or VoIP adaptor I've seen always uses rj-11 connectors. RJ11
-to-BT adaptors are readily available in the UK, just make sure you can
ones with ring capacitors in. In fact if you buy VoIP adaptors from a
lot of companies in the UK, they will supply the correct adaptors with
the hardware (since it isn't much use without them).

cheers,
Paul.

> Well I suppose. This is so confusing .. I mean if I was going to get
> a FritZ!Box the fact that it did ADSL as well could be an advantage if
> I move from NTL to something else?

You can always put an (annex A) ethernet ADSL modem in front of it then...

> The Fritz!Box also looks good and does the same things (plus ADSL) but
> is twice the price and does the extra things using non standard
> interfaces.

If you don't connect it to your fixed phone line, then all connectors are
standard (ADSL in on RJ11 (or RJ45 in for Cable), and 2 x RJ11 out to your
analogue phones). It's only when you still want to make or receive landline
calls that you need an adapter (included, but can also easily made
yourself - just cut an ethernet cable and a phone cable in half, and connect
them in the right way).

> What to do ...

I can not decide for you, but I'm just very happy with the Fritz!box range.
They are actually linux devices, so many hacks and extra options are
available for it - for instance on http://www.the-construct.com/ -> pseudo
image, try 14.04.26 -> "Ich möchte einen oder mehrere Mods installieren."
and then you see the list that can be added: telnet, vpn, enum, etc.

Another interesting (standard) option is "call through". You use your
mobile phonenumber to dial internationally over IP. How it works? Setup
your Fritz!box to use call through + enter your mobile phone number + a
pincode. Now, if you dial home, the Fritz!box recognizes your phone, and
asks for a pincode. If correct, you get the internal dialtone of the
Fritz!box (like you were at home from a normal phone). Then, you can dial
an internal number, or dial abroad using your VOIP. That way, you can call
very cheap abroad from your mobile phone.

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 14:34:10 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> Well I suppose. This is so confusing .. I mean if I was going to get
>> a FritZ!Box the fact that it did ADSL as well could be an advantage if
>> I move from NTL to something else?
>
>You can always put an (annex A) ethernet ADSL modem in front of it then...

True. Or just buy the UK version of course. ;-)
>
>> The Fritz!Box also looks good and does the same things (plus ADSL) but
>> is twice the price and does the extra things using non standard
>> interfaces.
>
>If you don't connect it to your fixed phone line, then all connectors are
>standard (ADSL in on RJ11 (or RJ45 in for Cable), and 2 x RJ11 out to your
>analogue phones). It's only when you still want to make or receive landline
>calls that you need an adapter (included, but can also easily made
>yourself - just cut an ethernet cable and a phone cable in half, and connect
>them in the right way).

Ah, thanks for the clarification.
>
>> What to do ...
>
>I can not decide for you, but I'm just very happy with the Fritz!box range.

I understand, 'one mans meat is another mans poison' etc ..

>They are actually linux devices, so many hacks and extra options are
>available for it - for instance on http://www.the-construct.com/ -> pseudo
>image, try 14.04.26 -> "Ich möchte einen oder mehrere Mods installieren."
>and then you see the list that can be added: telnet, vpn, enum, etc.

Oh ok. Although I have installed Linux a few times over the years
(various distros starting from a few floppies many years ago) I
haven't really used it in earnest and am certainly not familiar enough
with it to be comfortable at the command line etc.
>
>Another interesting (standard) option is "call through". You use your
>mobile phonenumber to dial internationally over IP. How it works? Setup
>your Fritz!box to use call through + enter your mobile phone number + a
>pincode. Now, if you dial home, the Fritz!box recognizes your phone, and
>asks for a pincode. If correct, you get the internal dialtone of the
>Fritz!box (like you were at home from a normal phone). Then, you can dial
>an internal number, or dial abroad using your VOIP. That way, you can call
>very cheap abroad from your mobile phone.

Hmm, that is clever but not something I can see myself needing John (I
rarely use my Nokia 6310i for UK calls let alone anything clever like
MMS / web access / international calls etc. I've even been given a
Nokia E50 and a LG-KE970 but they are both way OTT for my very basic
needs so stay in their boxes). ;-(

Ok, so I'd say it's between the FRITZ!Box Fon WLAN 7140 (~£130 / 5yrs
g'tee) and the DrayTek Vigor 2910VG (~£175 / 3 years g'tee).

All the best ..

T i m

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:21:42 +0100, Paul Hayes
<nomailforme@polog40.org.uk> wrote:

>T i m wrote:
>
>>
>>> The phone outputs are
>>> standard though (RJ11 per phone)
>>
>> Although we generally use RJ45 (phone) in the UK but RJ11 is
>> reasonably convertible, all be it with a couple of different
>> configurations (on the RJ11 end).
>
>RJ45 is an Ethernet connector. A BT connector doesn't have an "RJ"
>number, just a BS number (which I can't remember!).

Ah ok .. I was actually referring more to the style than the spec but
I take yer point Paul. ;-)
>
>Any router or VoIP adaptor I've seen always uses rj-11 connectors.

The only time I generally come across RJ11's is at the device end but
there is also a lot of telephone kit (phone / answering machine / fax
/ mfp's) that only have BT plugs / sockets on them? Agreed dial-up
modems and phones often have RJ11 at the unit end but need to be
converted to be used in the UK. It's mainly ADSL kit that is RJ11 at
both ends (and that's a good thing to stop folk trying to plug them in
the wrong side of the filters). Therefore, most telephone kit I've
used in the UK has a BT plug on the end. Maybe it's just a UK/BT
thing?


> RJ11
>-to-BT adaptors are readily available in the UK, just make sure you can
>ones with ring capacitors in.

And that's sorta my point Paul. If this gear had 'proper' (as we might
see it) BT sockets in the back (ignoring the 'international nature of
this kit etc) then you wouldn't need any adaptors and things like
ringing capacitors wouldn't need to be considered?

> In fact if you buy VoIP adaptors from a
>lot of companies in the UK, they will supply the correct adaptors with
>the hardware

Good to know thanks. Is there a std pinout yet for RJ11 to BT as I
have experienced many issues over the years with 'aftermarket' phone /
modem cables not being suitable (using 1-4 or 2-3 at the RJ11 end).


> (since it isn't much use without them).

Well I guess as long as the main A-B pair are present let's hope you
don't get any incoming calls? ;-)

What is the chance of the (German) Fritz!Box supplying the correct
adaptors to provide ringing then do you think Paul (or would the UK
distributors have sorted that one out as you suggest).

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
news:it34835v2uphoqnhnqihvos7742v5qj3k2@4ax.com...
> My first experience of Sipgate was a positive one (free local
> telephone number, it worked (Via X-Lite) nearly first time etc) so I
> like the idea they also sell the router that I may use with their
> service.

I don't want to generate an argument between two of our regular contributors
by continuing the discussion on Sipgate (it would be messy...), but I would
advise making sure you are happy with Sipgate on whatever ATA you get first.
If the service is good for you technically, then I am sure it will be OK on
the economics side. However there have been a lot of negative reviews on
the quality side in this group, although a lot of it was never really fully
justified or quantified by the posters. I personally have never got Sipgate
to work as well as other providers. The quality particularly seemed to
affect transmission of DTMF for me. The good thing about them over other
providers though is there is no real economic downside to giving them a try.

FWIW I can heartily recommend the FritzBox. I have tried three different
routers, and this is the best one. I particularly like the fact that it
doesn't give up trying to register with the VoIP provider if it has any
temporary network troubles. With the other two routers I tried, any problem
with the internet connection would mean the phone was unusable until the
router was re-booted. There are many other good reasons as well.

In terms of providers, I can also recommend voip.co.uk for inbound calls
(their outbound calls are fairly cheap but not the cheapest) and
voipcheap.com for outbound which will give you three month's landline use
(300 mins per week cap) to many countries when you top up with 10 euros.
This 10 euros can then also be used on other calls, effectively meaning 2.50
GBP/month get's you up to 1200 landline minutes and about 40 minutes to
mobiles for example. These may not be the best providers for you, but there
are plenty of other recommendations from users in this group - try trawling
through the archives.

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:58:19 GMT, "Herman"
<whhitehousemadhouse-2005@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>
>"T i m" <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
>news:it34835v2uphoqnhnqihvos7742v5qj3k2@4ax.com.. .
>> My first experience of Sipgate was a positive one (free local
>> telephone number, it worked (Via X-Lite) nearly first time etc) so I
>> like the idea they also sell the router that I may use with their
>> service.
>
>I don't want to generate an argument between two of our regular contributors
>by continuing the discussion on Sipgate (it would be messy...), but I would
>advise making sure you are happy with Sipgate on whatever ATA you get first.

Hi Herman and thanks for the heads up.

>If the service is good for you technically, then I am sure it will be OK on
>the economics side. However there have been a lot of negative reviews on
>the quality side in this group, although a lot of it was never really fully
>justified or quantified by the posters.

Ok, well I'm new to VoIP and here so I missed all that.

> I personally have never got Sipgate
>to work as well as other providers.

Well considering that (Sipgate) was my first experience with SIP base
VoIP it actually seemed to do what it said on the tin. I set it up,
the missus called me (to X-Lite) from the house phone and mobile and
it worked and sounded ok (to me anyway). Then I tried to call out and
was told I didn't have any credit (but that was also what I expected).

> The quality particularly seemed to
>affect transmission of DTMF for me.

Ah, well the proof of this (or any other similar puddings) will be in
the using. ;-)

> The good thing about them over other
>providers though is there is no real economic downside to giving them a try.

Well exactly. What do you have to loose etc. I was slightly
apprehensive 'registering with Sipgate (or anyone) as I wasn't sure of
the implications re any future use (like making up a password you
could never remember) but as I believe I understand it having a cudgel
of SIP providers could be considered the norm! ;-)
>
>FWIW I can heartily recommend the FritzBox. I have tried three different
>routers, and this is the best one.

Thanks for that. I *nearly* went the DrayTek route as it seemed a
'good bet', but the price and potential support 'attitude' (rather
than issues) held me back. I think I'll be ordering the FritZ!Box
tomorrow and again, time will tell ...

> I particularly like the fact that it
>doesn't give up trying to register with the VoIP provider if it has any
>temporary network troubles.

Yeah, I like that, a bit of persistence .. ;-)

> With the other two routers I tried, any problem
>with the internet connection would mean the phone was unusable until the
>router was re-booted.

Ah, not so good ..(especially if you are going for the world record
'Router up time' .. ;-)

> There are many other good reasons as well.

One I've spotted is the USB host. I have a little NAS here but it
would be nice to be able to plug in the odd 'Pen' or external drive
and access it elsewhere on the LAN. I did think having a print server
might be a good idea but I'm not sure if my Canon ip4000 would be
supported well (or at all) by one in any case.
>
>In terms of providers, I can also recommend voip.co.uk for inbound calls
>(their outbound calls are fairly cheap but not the cheapest) and
>voipcheap.com for outbound which will give you three month's landline use
>(300 mins per week cap) to many countries when you top up with 10 euros.

Ok. I must admit I hadn't really started looking into the PSTN call
costs as they are pretty low on both our lines anyway but it might
open up a few opportunities that we wouldn't consider otherwise (like
ringing reles abroad just for 'a chat'). ;-)

>This 10 euros can then also be used on other calls, effectively meaning 2.50
>GBP/month get's you up to 1200 landline minutes and about 40 minutes to
>mobiles for example.

Sounds pretty good ..?

> These may not be the best providers for you, but there
>are plenty of other recommendations from users in this group - try trawling
>through the archives.

Ok and thanks for that Herman.

My first task was to get a good solid router in place, then look into
VoIP and once we had proved to ourselves it was a realistic
alternative to a copper (or ally in our case <yuck>) telephone line
(and mainly for incoming calls at that) then we would get the second
line removed.

I think for my / our needs the 'best' option would be a service that
didn't expire credits if unused.

I bought a 20 quid Virgin mobile PAYG phone / SIM for that reason a
few (7?) years ago and by sticking 30 quid on it allowed me to
'unlock' the phone (or SIM, can't remember) from Virgin. The SIM
currently sits in whatever phone I have as a 'spare' (normally on
T-Mobile or net unlocked), hasn't ever been topped up since and still
has £22 on it! ;-)

All the best .. and thanks for the input ..

T i m

John Miller submitted this idea :
> Another interesting (standard) option is "call through". You use your mobile
> phonenumber to dial internationally over IP. How it works? Setup your
> Fritz!box to use call through + enter your mobile phone number + a pincode.
> Now, if you dial home, the Fritz!box recognizes your phone, and asks for a
> pincode. If correct, you get the internal dialtone of the Fritz!box (like
> you were at home from a normal phone). Then, you can dial an internal
> number, or dial abroad using your VOIP. That way, you can call very cheap
> abroad from your mobile phone.

If you have this feature activated, can you still call home?

On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:53:50 +0200, "John Miller"
<john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:

>> Another Q on the Fritz!Box itself. I know I've been told that you can
>> also use it as a cable (rather than ADSL) router but I can't see any
>> 'obvious' mention of this anywhere on any of their video demos, sales
>> blurb or the downloadable user manual?
>
>I just checked the manual, and indeed, I also can't find it anywhere.

I emailed AVM on the point and politely suggested they might be
loosing (some) customers because of it ... I got a very nice reply
today, part of which says:

"Great response from you, thanks very much for the very positive
feedback/criticism and, you're right about the lack of documentation
about this feature - it needs to be better communicated! It is nowhere
in the documentation (!) So I will make some noise because we
definitely could use those extra customers. We do try to deliver more
than promised, but this is an oversight."

It's nice to know there are Co's out there that are still interested.
;-)

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote in message
news:rma883hg7123c015qs168tcdv0h7ns5an0@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 27 Jun 2007 11:53:50 +0200, "John Miller"
> <john.miller@nospamplease.com> wrote:
>
>>> Another Q on the Fritz!Box itself. I know I've been told that you can
>>> also use it as a cable (rather than ADSL) router but I can't see any
>>> 'obvious' mention of this anywhere on any of their video demos, sales
>>> blurb or the downloadable user manual?
>>
>>I just checked the manual, and indeed, I also can't find it anywhere.
>
> I emailed AVM on the point and politely suggested they might be
> loosing (some) customers because of it ... I got a very nice reply
> today, part of which says:
>
> "Great response from you, thanks very much for the very positive
> feedback/criticism and, you're right about the lack of documentation
> about this feature - it needs to be better communicated! It is nowhere
> in the documentation (!) So I will make some noise because we
> definitely could use those extra customers. We do try to deliver more
> than promised, but this is an oversight."
>
> It's nice to know there are Co's out there that are still interested.
> ;-)
>
> All the best ..
>
> T i m
But remember you lose a LAN port (which becomes a WAN port)

Another way to check the headline features that you won't find in the manual
is by checking the documentation for their firmware updates. For example,
my 7050 does inbound and outbound call blocking with the latest firmware
which can be handy (e.g. MIL). The phonebook function however is no use at
all unless you are going to use click to dial from the web interface. I
thought it might add a name to the cli data but it doesn't.

> If you have this feature activated, can you still call home?

Yes, in two ways:

- When dialling home, enter your pincode, and then dial 9 to let all
internal numbers ring (not so convenient)

- I use a second SIP account to dial directly. So I dial number A for the
"Call Through" and number B for "normal" calls to home

> It's nice to know there are Co's out there that are still interested.

I also have good experience with their support.