Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
questions for me
Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
for me.
I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
these new laws just be ignored?
> Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
> questions for me
>
> Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
> been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
> VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
> of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
> for me.
>
> I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
> on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
> providers that seem to be adhering to these new laws www.vonage.co.uk
> and www.voipfone.co.uk this limits my options unless I am repaired to
> take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
> sticking to the rules for example www.gradwell.com, www.voip.co.uk,
> www.voiptalk.org, www.tescointernetphone.com, www.timico.co.uk
>
> I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
> the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
> regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
> regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
> these new laws just be ignored?
By its very nature [the "over IP" bit], you don't need to be in the UK to
operate a VoIP service targeting the UK.
> Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
Perhaps you could refresh our memories by telling us what these regulations
are. And how you know that the organisations you've listed aren't complying
with them. And why you care. I've been using voip.co.uk for 8 months now,
seemingly without ill effect.
--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpEaTm@ale.cx)
17:27:54 up 32 days, 19:28, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 0.45, 0.31
09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0
On 31 May, 17:32, alexd <troffa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> meisad...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> > Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
> > questions for me
>
> > Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
> > been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
> > VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
> > of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
> > for me.
>
> > I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
> > on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
> > providers that seem to be adhering to these new lawswww.vonage.co.uk
> > andwww.voipfone.co.ukthis limits my options unless I am repaired to
> > take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
> > sticking to the rules for examplewww.gradwell.com,www.voip.co.uk,
> >http://www.voiptalk.org,www.tescoint...w.timico.co.uk
>
> > I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
> > the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
> > regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
> > regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
> > these new laws just be ignored?
>
> By its very nature [the "over IP" bit], you don't need to be in the UK to
> operate a VoIP service targeting the UK.
>
> > Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>
> Perhaps you could refresh our memories by telling us what these regulations
> are. And how you know that the organisations you've listed aren't complying
> with them. And why you care. I've been using voip.co.uk for 8 months now,
> seemingly without ill effect.
> --
> <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpE...@ale.cx)
> 17:27:54 up 32 days, 19:28, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 0.45, 0.31
> 09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
it would seem that providers were given 2 months to comply with the
new laws http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/29/ofcom_voip/ having
read through the regulations i can only see the two above mentioned
companies that are adhering to these laws
my concerns are will offcom or the government close down companies
that have not complied and if so would i want to take a chance moving
my telecoms over to companies that are not going to be around in the
near future.
also if companies are blatantly ignoring what is now law what other
laws are they breaking for example data protection, data retention and
so on just rings alarm bells in my mind.
<meisadick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1180630265.813647.75920@u30g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> On 31 May, 17:32, alexd <troffa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> meisad...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>> > Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
>> > questions for me
>>
>> > Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
>> > been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
>> > VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
>> > of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
>> > for me.
>>
>> > I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
>> > on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
>> > providers that seem to be adhering to these new lawswww.vonage.co.uk
>> > andwww.voipfone.co.ukthis limits my options unless I am repaired to
>> > take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
>> > sticking to the rules for examplewww.gradwell.com,www.voip.co.uk,
>> >http://www.voiptalk.org,www.tescoint...w.timico.co.uk
>>
>> > I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
>> > the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
>> > regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
>> > regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
>> > these new laws just be ignored?
>>
>> By its very nature [the "over IP" bit], you don't need to be in the UK to
>> operate a VoIP service targeting the UK.
>>
>> > Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>>
>> Perhaps you could refresh our memories by telling us what these
>> regulations
>> are. And how you know that the organisations you've listed aren't
>> complying
>> with them. And why you care. I've been using voip.co.uk for 8 months now,
>> seemingly without ill effect.
>> --
>> <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpE...@ale.cx)
>> 17:27:54 up 32 days, 19:28, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 0.45, 0.31
>> 09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> it would seem that providers were given 2 months to comply with the
> new laws http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/29/ofcom_voip/ having
> read through the regulations i can only see the two above mentioned
> companies that are adhering to these laws
>
> my concerns are will offcom or the government close down companies
> that have not complied and if so would i want to take a chance moving
> my telecoms over to companies that are not going to be around in the
> near future.
>
> also if companies are blatantly ignoring what is now law what other
> laws are they breaking for example data protection, data retention and
> so on just rings alarm bells in my mind.
>
> Tom
The providers I use (for home use) are based outside the UK and
cost me next to nothing to run.
If they were forced to route 999/112 to the national emergency services
how would they know which nation. If they base it on the country I
submitted on sign-up, what happens if I use the service on holiday?
Could it be based in IP address, is that 100% reliable?
Assuming it could work somehow it all sounds very expensive for
my budget providers to remain just that.
Please leave things as they are. It's horses for courses, the only thing
the providers should be compelled to do is clearly set out their
services limitations.
On May 31, 8:38 pm, "Graham" <m...@privacy.com> wrote:
> <meisad...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:1180630265.813647.75920@u30g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 31 May, 17:32, alexd <troffa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> meisad...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> >> > Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
> >> > questions for me
>
> >> > Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
> >> > been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
> >> > VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
> >> > of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
> >> > for me.
>
> >> > I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
> >> > on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
> >> > providers that seem to be adhering to these new lawswww.vonage.co.uk
> >> > andwww.voipfone.co.ukthislimits my options unless I am repaired to
> >> > take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
> >> > sticking to the rules for examplewww.gradwell.com,www.voip.co.uk,
> >> >http://www.voiptalk.org,www.tescoint...w.timico.co.uk
>
> >> > I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
> >> > the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
> >> > regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
> >> > regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
> >> > these new laws just be ignored?
>
> >> By its very nature [the "over IP" bit], you don't need to be in the UK to
> >> operate a VoIP service targeting the UK.
>
> >> > Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>
> >> Perhaps you could refresh our memories by telling us what these
> >> regulations
> >> are. And how you know that the organisations you've listed aren't
> >> complying
> >> with them. And why you care. I've been using voip.co.uk for 8 months now,
> >> seemingly without ill effect.
> >> --
> >> <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpE...@ale.cx)
> >> 17:27:54 up 32 days, 19:28, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 0.45, 0.31
> >> 09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > it would seem that providers were given 2 months to comply with the
> > new lawshttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/29/ofcom_voip/having
> > read through the regulations i can only see the two above mentioned
> > companies that are adhering to these laws
>
> > my concerns are will offcom or the government close down companies
> > that have not complied and if so would i want to take a chance moving
> > my telecoms over to companies that are not going to be around in the
> > near future.
>
> > also if companies are blatantly ignoring what is now law what other
> > laws are they breaking for example data protection, data retention and
> > so on just rings alarm bells in my mind.
>
> > Tom
>
> The providers I use (for home use) are based outside the UK and
> cost me next to nothing to run.
> If they were forced to route 999/112 to the national emergency services
> how would they know which nation. If they base it on the country I
> submitted on sign-up, what happens if I use the service on holiday?
> Could it be based in IP address, is that 100% reliable?
> Assuming it could work somehow it all sounds very expensive for
> my budget providers to remain just that.
>
> Please leave things as they are. It's horses for courses, the only thing
> the providers should be compelled to do is clearly set out their
> services limitations.
>
> --
> Graham.
> %Profound_observation%- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
And of course comply with the laws of the country that they wish to
sell in otherwise what is the point in making laws that are for the
benefit of the end user.
As far as I'm aware the companies I mentioned in my previous posts are
all uk companies but while I'm on the subject www.sipgate.co.uk don't
seem to be taking any notice of the laws either.
Ironic really when you consider that they can sell to the uk and
provide uk numbers yet the German government won't allow German
numbers to be sold outside of Germany because THATS THE LAW
On Thu, 31 May 2007 20:38:52 +0100, "Graham" <me@privacy.com> wrote:
>
><meisadick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:1180630265.813647.75920@u30g2000hsc.googlegr oups.com...
>> On 31 May, 17:32, alexd <troffa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> meisad...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>>> > Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
>>> > questions for me
>>>
>>> > Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
>>> > been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
>>> > VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
>>> > of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
>>> > for me.
>>>
>>> > I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
>>> > on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
>>> > providers that seem to be adhering to these new lawswww.vonage.co.uk
>>> > andwww.voipfone.co.ukthis limits my options unless I am repaired to
>>> > take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
>>> > sticking to the rules for examplewww.gradwell.com,www.voip.co.uk,
>>> >http://www.voiptalk.org,www.tescoint...w.timico.co.uk
>>>
>>> > I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
>>> > the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
>>> > regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
>>> > regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
>>> > these new laws just be ignored?
>>>
>>> By its very nature [the "over IP" bit], you don't need to be in the UK to
>>> operate a VoIP service targeting the UK.
>>>
>>> > Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>>>
>>> Perhaps you could refresh our memories by telling us what these
>>> regulations
>>> are. And how you know that the organisations you've listed aren't
>>> complying
>>> with them. And why you care. I've been using voip.co.uk for 8 months now,
>>> seemingly without ill effect.
>>> --
>>> <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpE...@ale.cx)
>>> 17:27:54 up 32 days, 19:28, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 0.45, 0.31
>>> 09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> it would seem that providers were given 2 months to comply with the
>> new laws http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/29/ofcom_voip/ having
>> read through the regulations i can only see the two above mentioned
>> companies that are adhering to these laws
>>
>> my concerns are will offcom or the government close down companies
>> that have not complied and if so would i want to take a chance moving
>> my telecoms over to companies that are not going to be around in the
>> near future.
>>
>> also if companies are blatantly ignoring what is now law what other
>> laws are they breaking for example data protection, data retention and
>> so on just rings alarm bells in my mind.
>>
>> Tom
>
>The providers I use (for home use) are based outside the UK and
>cost me next to nothing to run.
>If they were forced to route 999/112 to the national emergency services
>how would they know which nation. If they base it on the country I
>submitted on sign-up, what happens if I use the service on holiday?
>Could it be based in IP address, is that 100% reliable?
>Assuming it could work somehow it all sounds very expensive for
>my budget providers to remain just that.
>
>Please leave things as they are. It's horses for courses, the only thing
>the providers should be compelled to do is clearly set out their
>services limitations.
voip.co.uk has always provided a 999 service, but, if I remember
correctly, they do say that you may need to give your location.
However, on their customer site, there is a place for entering your
address details for the 999 service.
Frankly, as regards people being informed about the reliability of
voip compared to a landline, I think it is just stupid.
Why don't they suggest that vendors of cordless phones inform people
that the phones won't work when the power goes off. It amounts to the
same thing. If people can't work out that ATAs, and the like, require
power to work then they have to be stupid - having said that I don't
think that the majority of people are aware that their cordless phones
won't work in a power outage. Some people say to me that they don't
need their wired phone now they have cordless, I often have to inform
them of the power problem.
Fortunately, when I get a power cut, my broadband still works so I
power all my voip stuff with a 12V battery and an 240V inverter.
Most of the people who use voip (excluding users of Vonage and similar
companies) are well aware of voip limitations - they set up their own
ATAs so they are not stupid.
Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
<meisadick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1180647815.212774.81300@g4g2000hsf.googlegrou ps.com
[snip]
> Ironic really when you consider that they can sell to the
> uk and provide uk numbers yet the German government won't
> allow German numbers to be sold outside of Germany
> because THATS THE LAW
On May 31, 5:51 pm, meisad...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> On 31 May, 17:32, alexd <troffa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > meisad...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> > > Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
> > > questions for me
>
> > > Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
> > > been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
> > > VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
> > > of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
> > > for me.
>
> > > I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
> > > on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
> > > providers that seem to be adhering to these new lawswww.vonage.co.uk
> > > andwww.voipfone.co.ukthislimits my options unless I am repaired to
> > > take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
> > > sticking to the rules for examplewww.gradwell.com,www.voip.co.uk,
> > >http://www.voiptalk.org,www.tescoint...w.timico.co.uk
>
> > > I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
> > > the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
> > > regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
> > > regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
> > > these new laws just be ignored?
>
> > By its very nature [the "over IP" bit], you don't need to be in the UK to
> > operate a VoIP service targeting the UK.
>
> > > Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>
> > Perhaps you could refresh our memories by telling us what these regulations
> > are. And how you know that the organisations you've listed aren't complying
> > with them. And why you care. I've been using voip.co.uk for 8 months now,
> > seemingly without ill effect.
> > --
> > <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpE...@ale.cx)
> > 17:27:54 up 32 days, 19:28, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 0.45, 0.31
> > 09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> it would seem that providers were given 2 months to comply with the
> new lawshttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/29/ofcom_voip/having
> read through the regulations i can only see the two above mentioned
> companies that are adhering to these laws
>
> my concerns are will offcom or the government close down companies
> that have not complied and if so would i want to take a chance moving
> my telecoms over to companies that are not going to be around in the
> near future.
>
> also if companies are blatantly ignoring what is now law what other
> laws are they breaking for example data protection, data retention and
> so on just rings alarm bells in my mind.
>
> Tom- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I looked at Sipgate because they're mentioned a lot here. They give
out UK numbers but they seem to be German. How do they do that? Can I
get a German number from a UK company? do they have the same laws?
"Brian A" <no_spam_bca1000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:umfu53ttrcmvmf775d6sq5p9ecm0ialbke@4ax.com
> On Thu, 31 May 2007 20:38:52 +0100, "Graham"
> <me@privacy.com> wrote:
[snip]
> > Please leave things as they are. It's horses for
> > courses, the only thing the providers should be
> > compelled to do is clearly set out their services
> > limitations.
>
> voip.co.uk has always provided a 999 service, but, if I
> remember correctly, they do say that you may need to give
> your location. However, on their customer site, there is
> a place for entering your address details for the 999
> service.
To be quite honest, I don't know what all the fuss is about 999 access.
Most people have mobiles these days, in a business environment it's highly
unlikely that there will be nobody on site with one. There will also
usually be at least one BT line, perhaps for a fax (fax over SIP, for
example, is still somewhat problematic). This could be used for 999 calls,
perhaps..?
Here, my system is programmed so that any 999 calls are automatically
routed over the BT line, it's an easy step in the setup of the Fritz!Box
that acts as the main router/ATA.
> Frankly, as regards people being informed about the
> reliability of voip compared to a landline, I think it is
> just stupid.
People *are* stupid, you have to tell them how to do everything. Why, I
have no idea as they rarely read the instructions..!
> Why don't they suggest that vendors of cordless phones
> inform people that the phones won't work when the power
> goes off. It amounts to the same thing. If people can't
> work out that ATAs, and the like, require power to work
> then they have to be stupid - having said that I don't
> think that the majority of people are aware that their
> cordless phones won't work in a power outage. Some people
> say to me that they don't need their wired phone now they
> have cordless, I often have to inform them of the power
> problem.
Every cordless phone I've bought has a notice in the instruction book that
a wired phone will be required for emergency access in the event of a
power failure. But I'm one of those rare people that actually read them,
so I saw this ;-)
> Fortunately, when I get a power cut, my broadband still
> works so I power all my voip stuff with a 12V battery and
> an 240V inverter.
I run all my comms stuff off a UPS.
> Most of the people who use voip (excluding users of
> Vonage and similar companies) are well aware of voip
> limitations - they set up their own ATAs so they are not
> stupid.
<meisadick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1180619131.524049.138060@q66g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
> questions for me
>
> Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
> been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
> VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
> of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
> for me.
>
> I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
> on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
> providers that seem to be adhering to these new laws www.vonage.co.uk
> and www.voipfone.co.uk this limits my options unless I am repaired to
> take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
> sticking to the rules for example www.gradwell.com, www.voip.co.uk,
> www.voiptalk.org, www.tescointernetphone.com, www.timico.co.uk
>
> I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
> the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
> regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
> regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
> these new laws just be ignored?
>
> Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>
Unless I am missing something www.voip.co.uk have always offered 999 calls.
On May 31, 11:00 pm, "Ivor Jones" <i...@despammed.invalid> wrote:
> "Brian A" <no_spam_bca1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:umfu53ttrcmvmf775d6sq5p9ecm0ialbke@4ax.com
>
> > On Thu, 31 May 2007 20:38:52 +0100, "Graham"
> > <m...@privacy.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > Please leave things as they are. It's horses for
> > > courses, the only thing the providers should be
> > > compelled to do is clearly set out their services
> > > limitations.
>
> > voip.co.uk has always provided a 999 service, but, if I
> > remember correctly, they do say that you may need to give
> > your location. However, on their customer site, there is
> > a place for entering your address details for the 999
> > service.
>
> To be quite honest, I don't know what all the fuss is about 999 access.
> Most people have mobiles these days, in a business environment it's highly
> unlikely that there will be nobody on site with one. There will also
> usually be at least one BT line, perhaps for a fax (fax over SIP, for
> example, is still somewhat problematic). This could be used for 999 calls,
> perhaps..?
>
> Here, my system is programmed so that any 999 calls are automatically
> routed over the BT line, it's an easy step in the setup of the Fritz!Box
> that acts as the main router/ATA.
>
> > Frankly, as regards people being informed about the
> > reliability of voip compared to a landline, I think it is
> > just stupid.
>
> People *are* stupid, you have to tell them how to do everything. Why, I
> have no idea as they rarely read the instructions..!
>
> > Why don't they suggest that vendors of cordless phones
> > inform people that the phones won't work when the power
> > goes off. It amounts to the same thing. If people can't
> > work out that ATAs, and the like, require power to work
> > then they have to be stupid - having said that I don't
> > think that the majority of people are aware that their
> > cordless phones won't work in a power outage. Some people
> > say to me that they don't need their wired phone now they
> > have cordless, I often have to inform them of the power
> > problem.
>
> Every cordless phone I've bought has a notice in the instruction book that
> a wired phone will be required for emergency access in the event of a
> power failure. But I'm one of those rare people that actually read them,
> so I saw this ;-)
>
> > Fortunately, when I get a power cut, my broadband still
> > works so I power all my voip stuff with a 12V battery and
> > an 240V inverter.
>
> I run all my comms stuff off a UPS.
>
> > Most of the people who use voip (excluding users of
> > Vonage and similar companies) are well aware of voip
> > limitations - they set up their own ATAs so they are not
> > stupid.
>
> Some of them are, unfortunately.
>
> Ivor
I think you are missing my point ivor.
The point I am trying to make is that I'm looking for a provider that
is law abiding and seen to be sticking to the rules.
>From what I can see there are only two to choose from. My question is
how can all these companies ignore what is now law? Are offcom able to
enforce these regulations? And if so would this mean closure of any
companies that do not comply?
I do not want to find that in 6 months time the provider I have chosen
has to close, I have lost my numbers, and my business is affected.
"Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
news:5c8usdF3066tlU1@mid.individual.net...
> To be quite honest, I don't know what all the fuss is about 999 access.
> Most people have mobiles these days, in a business environment it's highly
> unlikely that there will be nobody on site with one. There will also
> usually be at least one BT line, perhaps for a fax (fax over SIP, for
> example, is still somewhat problematic). This could be used for 999 calls,
> perhaps..?
>
> Here, my system is programmed so that any 999 calls are automatically
> routed over the BT line, it's an easy step in the setup of the Fritz!Box
> that acts as the main router/ATA.
I *do* understand what all the fuss is about. I have previously had
problems calling 999 on a VoIP service that is supposed to offer the service
(voip.co.uk). Add to that a simultaneous problem with the local mobile
phone mast...
In my case the 3-4 minutes extra it took to find a phone that worked didn't
make a great deal of difference. However I now have a fixed line precisely
so that I can make 999 calls. By the way, voip.co.uk say they have now
resolved the issue which was with one of their downstream carriers, but I
don't want to risk that again.
Mind you it does remind me that I don't have a corded phone in the house,
not that that makes a great deal of difference with the FritzBox which
provides no service in a power outage (PSTN fallover does not work).
meisadick@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> On 31 May, 17:32, alexd <troffa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> meisad...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>>> Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
>>> questions for me
>>> Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
>>> been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
>>> VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
>>> of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
>>> for me.
>>> I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
>>> on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
>>> providers that seem to be adhering to these new lawswww.vonage.co.uk
>>> andwww.voipfone.co.ukthis limits my options unless I am repaired to
>>> take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
>>> sticking to the rules for examplewww.gradwell.com,www.voip.co.uk,
>>> http://www.voiptalk.org,www.tescoint...w.timico.co.uk
>>> I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
>>> the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
>>> regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
>>> regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
>>> these new laws just be ignored?
>> By its very nature [the "over IP" bit], you don't need to be in the UK to
>> operate a VoIP service targeting the UK.
>>
>>> Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>> Perhaps you could refresh our memories by telling us what these regulations
>> are. And how you know that the organisations you've listed aren't complying
>> with them. And why you care. I've been using voip.co.uk for 8 months now,
>> seemingly without ill effect.
>> --
>> <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) (UnSoEsNpE...@ale.cx)
>> 17:27:54 up 32 days, 19:28, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 0.45, 0.31
>> 09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> it would seem that providers were given 2 months to comply with the
> new laws http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/29/ofcom_voip/ having
> read through the regulations i can only see the two above mentioned
> companies that are adhering to these laws
>
how are you determining whether or not we meet OFCOM's new criteria?
"Herman" <whhitehousemadhouse-2005@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
message news:8iQ7i.6061$VS.4271@newsfe3-win.ntli.net
> "Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message
> news:5c8usdF3066tlU1@mid.individual.net...
> > To be quite honest, I don't know what all the fuss is
> > about 999 access. Most people have mobiles these days,
> > in a business environment it's highly unlikely that
> > there will be nobody on site with one. There will also
> > usually be at least one BT line, perhaps for a fax (fax
> > over SIP, for example, is still somewhat problematic).
> > This could be used for 999 calls, perhaps..? Here, my system is
> > programmed so that any 999 calls are
> > automatically routed over the BT line, it's an easy
> > step in the setup of the Fritz!Box that acts as the
> > main router/ATA.
>
> I *do* understand what all the fuss is about. I have
> previously had problems calling 999 on a VoIP service
> that is supposed to offer the service (voip.co.uk). Add
> to that a simultaneous problem with the local mobile
> phone mast...
> In my case the 3-4 minutes extra it took to find a phone
> that worked didn't make a great deal of difference. However I now have a
> fixed line precisely so that I can
> make 999 calls. By the way, voip.co.uk say they have now
> resolved the issue which was with one of their downstream
> carriers, but I don't want to risk that again.
It's too much of a pain, how do you tell them you're not at your home
location..? With a memory like mine, I'd forget. Easier to use a mobile.
> Mind you it does remind me that I don't have a corded
> phone in the house, not that that makes a great deal of
> difference with the FritzBox which provides no service in
> a power outage (PSTN fallover does not work).
Hmm, interesting. Never tested that, but then I have a UPS.
<meisadick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1180650279.263031.261310@u30g2000hsc.googlegr oups.com
[snip]
> I think you are missing my point ivor.
>
> The point I am trying to make is that I'm looking for a
> provider that is law abiding and seen to be sticking to
> the rules.
These "rules" you keep mentioning, can you summarise them for me please..?
What are they and why would a company have to close for non-compliance..?
> > From what I can see there are only two to choose from.
> > My question is
> how can all these companies ignore what is now law? Are
> offcom able to enforce these regulations? And if so would
> this mean closure of any companies that do not comply?
Obviously not, as they're still around..! Again, please summarise.
> I do not want to find that in 6 months time the provider
> I have chosen has to close, I have lost my numbers, and
> my business is affected.
Brian A wrote:
> Why don't they suggest that vendors of cordless phones inform people
> that the phones won't work when the power goes off. It amounts to the
> same thing.
At one time, cordless phones did have warning stickers. There will
always be somebody trying to introduce fear and a `safety case` argument
against any new technology.
Also, a lot of them used to have a place in the power supply to put in
dry (not rechargeable) AA batteries to keep the base going if the power
went off.
Of course, now we all know that cordless phones aren't going to cause
millions of people to die because they can't dial 999.
"Tim" <nutnews@kooky.org> wrote in message
news:465fff4a$0$647$bed64819@news.gradwell.net
> Brian A wrote:
> > Why don't they suggest that vendors of cordless phones
> > inform people that the phones won't work when the power
> > goes off. It amounts to the same thing.
>
> At one time, cordless phones did have warning stickers.
> There will always be somebody trying to introduce fear
> and a `safety case` argument against any new technology.
The manuals of every cordless phone I've seen include this. Of course we
all read the manuals, don't we ;-)
> Also, a lot of them used to have a place in the power
> supply to put in dry (not rechargeable) AA batteries to
> keep the base going if the power went off.
They still do, but they only maintain the internal memory, they don't
allow the phone to be used during a power failure.
> Of course, now we all know that cordless phones aren't
> going to cause millions of people to die because they
> can't dial 999.
Ivor Jones wrote:
> These "rules" you keep mentioning, can you summarise them for me please..?
> What are they and why would a company have to close for non-compliance..?
I can't find the relevant ofcom document, even though I've read it recently.
But it comes down to:
1) ITSPs must provide access to 999 services. I guess that means 112 as
well.
2) If the customer wants it, their ITSP must provide them with a label
for their phone that says:
“Emergency calls may fail if you have a power cut or your broadband
connection fails”
I have a part code for a suitable label, should anybody wish to buy one
for their phone.
"acdeag" <KWDQVSEETUHW@spammotel.com> wrote in message
news:oWH7i.28942$Ro3.18499@text.news.blueyonder.co .uk...
> <meisadick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1180619131.524049.138060@q66g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
>> Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
>> questions for me
>>
>> Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
>> been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
>> VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
>> of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
>> for me.
>>
>> I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
>> on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
>> providers that seem to be adhering to these new laws www.vonage.co.uk
>> and www.voipfone.co.uk this limits my options unless I am repaired to
>> take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
>> sticking to the rules for example www.gradwell.com, www.voip.co.uk,
>> www.voiptalk.org, www.tescointernetphone.com, www.timico.co.uk
>>
>> I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
>> the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
>> regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
>> regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
>> these new laws just be ignored?
>>
>> Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>>
>
> Unless I am missing something www.voip.co.uk have always offered 999
> calls.
I just have set it up in my PAP2 to go to the Police when 999 is dialled, OK
it's not the real 999 but it is the Police and it's manned 24/7 and they
just redirect you to the real 999.
Tim wrote:
> Ivor Jones wrote:
>> These "rules" you keep mentioning, can you summarise them for me please..?
>> What are they and why would a company have to close for non-compliance..?
>
> I can't find the relevant ofcom document, even though I've read it recently.
<meisadick@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1180619131.524049.138060@q66g2000hsg.googlegr oups.com...
> Afternoon I hope that someone on here could answer a couple of
> questions for me
>
> Either I am being dumb or I am completely missing something I have
> been considering moving the telecoms for my business and home over to
> VoIP for a while now and have spent the last month or so doing a lot
> of reading and trying to weigh up what provider is going to be best
> for me.
>
> I am aware that new regulation for the VoIP industry came in to force
> on the 29th of this month yet I have only been able to find 2
> providers that seem to be adhering to these new laws www.vonage.co.uk
> and www.voipfone.co.uk this limits my options unless I am repaired to
> take a chance on one of the companies that would seem to be NOT
> sticking to the rules for example www.gradwell.com, www.voip.co.uk,
> www.voiptalk.org, www.tescointernetphone.com, www.timico.co.uk
>
> I'm quite confused as to why these regulations are being ignored by
> the vast majority of VoIP providers is there not some sort of
> regulatory body that is supposed to ensure that these rules and
> regulations are adhered to or is it only offcom ? In addition, how can
> these new laws just be ignored?
>
> Can anyone shed any light on this for me?
>
Hi,
I think the main point here is as Peter Gradwell was suggesting.
Essentially, is the service either a deemed replacement (main or landline)
telephony service or an evidently traditional or hard phone service or
technology.
I.e. if I provide a softphone only service (albeit perhaps permitting if not
supporting hardware equipment - ATA, etc.) and specifically indicate that
this service is intended to be used only with an approved or indicates
softphone then I think it goes without saying what limitations apply (i.e. /
e.g. - no power = no computer = no anything [or at least no anything that
uses, requires or relates to that computer - i.e. in this case any softphone
telephony service]).
I think several strings come into play here:
- as above re: soft vs. hard status or provision
- replacement telephony status (many services explicitly indicate that
their service is not a telephony replacement service - I believe for example
all the Betamax services now say this and have done for some time)
- beta vs. live - many services record or report themselves as beta which
somewhat leads me to imagine this is something of a get out (clause)
- similar to the above is the disclaimer regarding power and / or emergency
service access (i.e. just as per not being a telephony replacement service
other operators or the same ones indicate explicitly that their services
will not function in the event of power or internet access outage and
equally that emergency service use or access may be explicitly excluded)
Thus in short, I think you can come up with several combinations from the
above (and probably others I have forgotten or am unaware of) which I should
imagine happily serve to exclude the operator from falling within the
definition or remit of the regulation(s). I.e. or they in fact be a
completely different service all together that is nothing do with any of the
things you are talking about (not wanting to cloud the picture or muddy the
water - but never the less - they are or could be termed "supplementary" or
"additional" telephony services - i.e. not a normal or "telephony" service
at all [or at least as it has been or was known]).
Hope that helps.
Their may also be an issue concerning legal domain - as others have
suggested - if a company operates from another legal jurisdiction it may not
be required to comply with this native / UK regulation (that would be
interesting to confirm - it certainly seems, and I understand, that for
example with respect to cold calling or automated calling systems if
originating from another country they can flout our domestic laws).
Any input or thought on this latter matter especially, but on any of the
points here, gratefully received and appreciated.
Best wishes,
News Reader
(Aside: P.s. Hopefully a few less " / " 's now - for those who have tried to
help on that front :) ).
"Paul Cupis" <paul@cupis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f3q9k4$no2$2@energise.enta.net
> Tim wrote:
> > Ivor Jones wrote:
> > > These "rules" you keep mentioning, can you summarise
> > > them for me please..? What are they and why would a
> > > company have to close for non-compliance..?
> >
> > I can't find the relevant ofcom document, even though
> > I've read it recently.
>
> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2007/03/nr_20070329
Thanks Paul.
That document states, amongst other things:
"The new code of practice requires VoIP providers to make clear:
a.. whether or not the service includes access to emergency services..."
This seems to me to mean that they must tell you whether or not you can
access emergency services, not that they *must* provide access.
on 02/06/2007, News Reader supposed :
>
> (Aside: P.s. Hopefully a few less " / " 's now - for those who have tried to
> help on that front :) ).
And there I was, about to admonish you in a different thread, as I'd
thought you'd forgotten. Nested brackets are a little tricky to read
too - like reading algebra!
"Jono" <nothanks@blueyonder.invalid> wrote in message
news:mn.128c7d76637eb0cd.48968@blueyonder.invalid
> on 02/06/2007, News Reader supposed :
> >
> > (Aside: P.s. Hopefully a few less " / " 's now - for
> > those who have tried to help on that front :) ).
>
> And there I was, about to admonish you in a different
> thread, as I'd thought you'd forgotten. Nested brackets
> are a little tricky to read too - like reading algebra!
>
> :-)
RPN (Reverse Polish Notation) works well with those..! Although those old
HP calculators with it don't seem to be around now, more's the pity.
Ivor Jones wrote:
> "Paul Cupis" <paul@cupis.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:f3q9k4$no2$2@energise.enta.net
>> Tim wrote:
>>> Ivor Jones wrote:
>>>> These "rules" you keep mentioning, can you summarise
>>>> them for me please..? What are they and why would a
>>>> company have to close for non-compliance..?
>>> I can't find the relevant ofcom document, even though
>>> I've read it recently.
>> http://www.ofcom.org.uk/media/news/2007/03/nr_20070329
>
> Thanks Paul.
>
> That document states, amongst other things:
>
> "The new code of practice requires VoIP providers to make clear:
>
> a.. whether or not the service includes access to emergency services..."
> This seems to me to mean that they must tell you whether or not you can
> access emergency services, not that they *must* provide access.
>
> Or am I reading it wrongly..?
No, you are correct. The regulations do not require VoIP operators to
provide 999/112 access, but they do require operators to make it very
clear to their users whether 999/112 is available - i.e. they must make
the customer aware that it is not supported if it is not.
Ofcom are considering further regulations to require access to 999/112
in the future.
providers and voip regulations 